Opinion: Explaining what the ‘****’ talk is all about
By Kristin Luker
I was a first-year graduate student at Yale in the late 1960s and had been called into the room of a faceless bureaucrat. What I mostly remember about the man was how gray he was: gray eyes, gray hair, garbed in the traditional Ivy League charcoal-gray suit.
He told me that the fellowship I was on was being dropped, and I needed to switch to another one. The problem, it seemed, was that I was eligible for two fellowships; one roughly the equivalent of what I had, and one much more generous. After looking at me for a long moment, he summarily dismissed the very idea of awarding me the better fellowship. “Well,” he said, leaning over the table so he could explain the facts of graduate school life to me, “we absolutely can’t give you that fellowship. You might get pregnant and get married.” And yes, he did say it in that order.
Note what he didn’t say. He didn’t say that I might choose to become pregnant, or that such a question never arose when male graduate students were under consideration. (I know because I asked them.)
And that’s what all this **** talk is really about.
Kristin Luker, a professor of law and sociology, is the founder of the new Center on Reproductive Rights and Justice at UC Berkeley School of Law.
Sorry I found $3000 a year for protection a little much
I’m calling horse hockey. Even back then, a woman could do as she pleased. It certainly wasn’t as easy as it is now. But my mom had a career, as did most of my friends’ mothers. I was born in 1956.
As my dad used to say, you pay your money and you take your choice. Stop making ME pay for YOUR choice.
I’m calling pathetic self loathing back to the 50’s… 1850’s regressives
What exactly IS your point, Smugley?
Rush was wrong to say what he said, but the liberal media says whatever it wants, and worse, with impunity. This weekend, I heard a well known NPR radio show host imply that the pope was a pedophile nazi when commenting on his visit to Mexico and Cuba. As a Catholic I found this to be over the top, but since he was trying to be funny, I suppose he got a get out a jail free card from his liberal press buddies. There is a double standard in this country when it comes to free speach.
Rush was wrong to say what he said, but the liberal media says whatever it wants, and worse, with impunity. This weekend, I heard a well known NPR radio show host imply that the Pope is Nazi pedophile when commenting on his visit to Mexico and Cuba. As a Catholic I found this to be way over the top, but since this NPR celebrity was attempting to be funny I suppose he got a get out a jail free card from his liberal press buddies. His studio audience sure got a big kick out of his statements, judging by the extended laughter I heard. No one I heard objected to this insult, which does not surprise me anymore. Few are brave enough to speak out against politically correct biogotry in our country. Imagine if any conservative made a similar joke about Jews or Muslims in front of a live audiance today – they would be skinned alive by the press. I certainly doubt that their statements would result in an article in this blog. There is a double standard in this country when it comes to free speech.
I’m sorry Kristin that only girls can get pregnant. Mother nature (sic) is so fickle. I guess to make things fair both males and females should always be asked if they are planning to get pregnant.
Ms. Fluke (rhymes with luck, not luke according to the media mouths and also a few other choice words) intentional set her high minded self up to be the recipient of some heavy-duty comments. Ms. Fluke maybe forgot that pregnancy prevention pills DO NOT protect against STD’s like other pregnancy prevention devices.
The dictionary definitions of the words **** and stud are basically the same and yes one of the words can be considered a compliment and the other a slur. No question this is wrong now that both sexes can behave any way they want in our equalitarian society.
I’m not asking for anyone to pay for a woman’s choice. I’m asking for it to be covered by my insurance which *I* pay for.
Sorry Dogwoman, but you are just plain wrong and you know it. Your mother was employed, good for her. Did she have a “career” or a job in a field that was acceptable for a woman to have. There were some who had great careers, but they had to fight twice as hard to get there.If she was treated remotely equally to her male counterparts, that was a rarity. I am sure she was passed over for promotions because she “might get pregnant”. I am in high-tech HR and I have heard managers openly say this to me as a reason not to hire as recently as the late 1990s. Some still think it, but are too smart to say it. When you and I were in college, the job ads were broken out as “Jobs for Men” and “Jobs for Women” (LA Times, not a backwater paper). I was fired from my first job in the 70s because I turned my boss down for a date (I was 17 and he was in his 40s and married with 5 children, but mad because his wife was too “tired” to go dancing on Sat nights). Fluke isn’t asking for you to pay for her birth control, just to have the insurance that she is paying for to cover as it would any other prescribed medicine.
Did you actually HEAR what she said? Did you listen? That’s exactly what she was asking for.
And no, nobody is being denied “access”. You can have all the access you want if you buy your own. That includes insurance policies.
Ummm. No. That is not what she was asking for.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/boxofficebuz/transcript-of-testimony-by-sandra-fluke-48z2
The problem with SOCIALIXED MEDICINE is that everyone wants something for nothing, MEDICARE is the big one we all pay big taxes so old people live like there on paid vacaton my taxes paying for that while tehy have houses, cars boats etc. STOP ALL SOCIALIZED MEDICINE AND GET OFF THE MEDICARE DOLE! WE NEED TO END WELFARE-SSN AND MEDICARE!
Wake up!!! Yall must know that every Arab Nation considers their women as subordinate in capacity and or function.
Apparently yall above have no idea that Chairman Darrell Issa Republican,Southern Ca. is a Arab of Lebanese estraction.
He claims to have been born in the USA.As RED BUTTONS would say”HO Ho HA HA” He has also claims innocence for crimes of automobile theft and arson.
As yall now know Ms.Fluke has been declared a ****. SHAME ON YALL
PS Fact not Fiction: On Feb.7,2007 he disparaged the families of the Bush Shadow Army, Blackwater, April 2008 he claimed that the federal government “just threw” buckets of cash at New york for the 911 attacks”that had no dirty bomb in it,it had no chemical munitions in it” He went on: “I have to ask..why the firefighters who went there and everybody in the city of New York needs to come to come to the federal government for the dollars versus this being primairly a state consideration.”
Bushie Boo and The Arab too!! OMG
So Dogwoman… if you get cancer and have been paying insurance premiums for years, does that mean you should have to pay for all chemo in addition as otherwise you are asking us to pay for your “access”?
You Know what ? I have Cancer not ashamed to say this but I thank the Insurence I get which is medical ,and not to mention help from Cancer society Thank God ,I know its not the Issue here but lets be thankful for what ever help is out there ,and it is ,Also thank you for the tax payers as well ,so live and be thankful for what we have here in the USA,THANK YOU,
Dogwoman, you have no clue what you are talking about. Insurance companies deny coverage all of the time. That is one of the biggest problems we have. The U.S. pays nearly twice as much of our GDP in health care cost (17% vs 8% and 9% in other industrialized nations) and for what? We score much lower in all important health metrics (longevity, infant mortality, etc). In other words we have the most expensive system in the world with the lowest quality care. Wow, I guess that makes us competitive. something close to 70% of all individual bankruptcies are do mostly to health care cost. Sorry, if we refuse to grapple with the tough questions of how to drive down cost and improve care, we are doomed.
Rick
Contraception = less stupid people + less welfare
less stupid people + less welfare = good
Sorry the math is really simple on this one and the sum is you are all wrong and Fluke is right.
BTW what’s wrong with *****? Some of my fondest college memories…
Rick, it really depends on the policy you choose to purchase. Pay more, get more. If you select the cheapest, well, there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.
With regards to Sands’ post, I agree that your equation is right. But I still don’t see how it is constitutional to force a Religious organization whose creed condemns birth control and/or abortive procedures to pay for people to have them. That’s the issue.
Dogula – I don’t understand how it is *unconstitutional* to ensure that employers allow for certain options. And that is the issue. Can you explain that, please?
It is the responsibility of the insurance companies to provide it not the church itself. Since it is WAY cheaper than paying for an actual birth of a wanted or unwanted child they don’t even mind. 75% of catholic women use contraception, this is a non-argument.
This whole argument has been trumpted up by the GOP Obama hate machine to refudiate Obamacare, when they have absolutely nothing to put on the table for Health Care. 2 of the 3 major cannidates support an individual mandate!
For once America moves towards HealthCare for all like all the other “civilized” countries and our big argument against it is it goes against the Catholic Church. WE ARE NOT A THEOCRACY.
My (I repeat, MY!) relatives came over on a boat for religious freedom and MY relatives fought for a free country and MY relatives formed a country where the very first amemdment of our constitution ruled our religion as a form of government.
When Santorums grampa got off the olive oil boat a decade ago ago and decided Americans would do everything the Catholic Church, I must not have gotten the memo passed down.
There is nowhere in the constition that states we must stop at Stop Signs, but we made a law b/c its a good freaking idea, so is having contraception available to all but not forcing anyone to take it.
Orale, I did explain. Insurance companies do not provide ANYTHING for free. SOMEBODY has to pay for it. And if the insurance policy the Church buys covers abortion/birth control, it is the Church that is paying for that coverage. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
Apparently the Obama administration can’t understand it either. Feigned stupidity.
@sands: You can HAVE your abortion. You just cannot force ME (or the Church) to pay for it. We are not denying anybody access to anything. But we refuse to be complicit in making immoral procedures happen with OUR money.
DOGULA its worse than that why should I have to pay for anyones insurance? Im talking about medicare. Freeloaders taking taking taking while I pay and pay and pay.LEt them buy there own insurance for a change and if they cant they cantand quit wining because you want you’re welfare. END ALL WELFARE!
And to a Christian Scientist all health care is immoral, so there ya go. Problem solved, we close all medical facilities.
“Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the(GOP)Party, and they’re sure trying to do so, it’s going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can’t and won’t compromise. I know, I’ve tried to deal with them.” .. Barry Goldwater… once considered Way too crazy to be President.
No, John. That would be forcing your own religious beliefs on others. I am not forcing my beliefs on anyone else, I am just not willing to pay for theirs.
Don’t they teach logic in school anymore?
Re: medicare: Supposedly we’ve all been paying into that, so it’s not supposed to be somebody else paying your bills. Of course, the way the feds screw around with accounts, it isn’t actually so.
Smedley, how can you ask someone to compromise on murder?
You’ll have to pry my talibangelist wingnut belief system from my cold dead brain.
Ah. I see. Smedley doesn’t believe in logical and civil discussion either. So much for tolerance and acceptance in this liberal town.
Dogwoman, I am painfully logical. Your arguement, which I agree with by the way, is: Birth control and abortion should not be paid for by health insurance because sex, and an by product of sex is not a disease or condition that requires medical treatment. And while sex is indeed a normal part of the human condition, it is more closely akin to eating and sleeping than a cold or flu. Therefore medical insurance should not subsidize these expenses. (And now to tick off 75 percent of the readers of this site) However, erictile dysfunction is a disease and treatable. Therefore viagra should be paid for by insurance.
Where did you get THAT?
No, my argument is that the health insurance paid for by Churches or other organizations who believe that abortion is immoral, should not be forced to cover those procedures.
That is all.
But I buy my own insurance. Unfortunately, even now state by state it is so heavily legislated than I am paying for stuff I don’t want. Federal will make it worse.
Admin, is there any hope of getting an “edit” button so we can change our posts when we do something incredibly stupid. Ie: “logically” above.
So its the provider you are hung up on Dogwoman? Got news, but every single person in this country pays for the upkeep of the current mess of a healthcare system. If these religous hospitals are willing to quit taking health insurance then fine. More power to them. But if they are going to take health insurance well now the rules change. I pay taxes that pay for the regulation and clearing of health insuracne claims. I also pay for grants that pay for many hospital expenses such as capital upgrades. If you want to make your morality arguement Dogwoman, then I want to make my morality arguement. That means as a Christian Scientist it is immoral to engage in any health care. You want to have your cake and eat it too.
Just curious if those that protest this mandate making insurance provided by religious organization as being a breach of church and state were also just as vocal when the couple that because of their religious beliefs would not provide any medical treatment for their son, who had a serious illness and then died, then the parents were prosecuted (not sure if they were charged with manslaughter). I think not!
I think we should stick with the whole morality line. All livestock laws should be changed so that every moral man can present to the family of the bride – 12 goats. If we have laws against the keeping of 12 goats then we are an amoral society.
Sex creates medical issues!!! You must go to a doctor to receive birth control!!! Therefore, birth control should be covered under your medical insurance!!!
Seriously, to argue that erectile disfunction is a disease!?! It is what happens as men age. So is menopause now a disease? No, they are both natural. This is the dumbest argument against insurance covering birth control and being for it covering Viagra that I continously keep hearing.
My sister had problems ever since she had her first period. She would bleed for a month straight. The only way to stop this and prevent her from becoming anemic was for the doctor to prescribe her birth control pills. This happens all the time. Birth control is used for many things besides preventing pregnancy. The girl who is getting belittled was talking about her friend with a similar issue to my sister’s.
This is not an issue about your moral beliefs or your tax dollars paying for it. It is an issue about women receiving the medical care we all deserve.
Please enlighten yourselves before listening to, and passing on, the misinformed drivel that we are constantly being bombarded with.
Heather Cade
You people are either incapable of sticking to the point at hand, or you simply are unable to understand what I think I am saying very clearly.
So I am DONE with this subject. I think y’all just want to argue for the sake of arguing.
We people are completely able to understand what you think you are saying very clearly…and we people are very capable of seeing it as the wingnuttery/teabaggery crapola it is.
Snoheather, I fundamentally disagree. Pregnancy is not a medical condition and thinking that pregnancy is a mdedical condition has resulted in the U.S. having one of the poorest infant survival rates amongst industrialized nations. I went the medical route for the first kid. The second we had at home so that we could escape the medicalization of child birth. Now about your sister, that is a winner, and so women who are prescribed birth control for some reason other than the prevention of pregnancy, well then they should have that covered by insurance. By the way, erectile dysfunction is not about age. Healty men in their 70’s and 80’s can have erections.
John- I feel the logic behind your argument is flawed. How is a man not being able to get it up a medical condition that should be covered by medical insurance when a woman’s reproductive health, in your opinion, should not? The only reason for a man to get erectile dysfunction medicine is to maintain an erect penis for sexual intercourse and, as I’ve pointed out, there are other reasons for women to receive birth control.
I feel that anything that requires a person to go to a MEDICAL doctor to receive a prescription should be covered under their MEDICAL insurance.
Snoheather, come on there are numerous cases where people need a doctor but insurance doesnt cover the cost: oral braces, eye glasses or hearing aids. Quit flossing and find out what happens when you get paradontal disease.
In the case where a woman has a medical complaint such as painful menstruation of course hormone pills should be prescribed and covered by insurance. But not just to prevent pregnancy because pregnancy is not a medical condition. Its simple really. And I know it bothers people, but sex is a fundamental part of the human condition, so if a man has a disease that prevents him from having sex then he should be able to get treatment just like the woman with painful menstruation. So to be clear, if the pill is used to treat a woman’s reproductive health, then of course it should be covered.
Erectile dysfunction is not a disease. It is a condition mostly caused by unhealthy lifestyles of men. Men can have coverage to be able to continue having sex but women can’t have coverage to prevent unwanted pregnancies. It is so illogical.
By the way you go to a MEDICAL doctor to receive birth control. Not an optometrist or dentist. We are not talking about eye or dental insurance.
I am a Christian and I believe that all people are persons, but that choice is not up to me to make for others. What is being missed here is that matter of the Insurance. After fifteen years of marriage to my soul mate, he divorced me,and I lost my home, my income, and alot of my possessions. I couldn’t afford Cobra coverage and Blue Cross Blue Shield turned me down because of a preexisting condition. I am now a Senior citizen who will not be eligible for MEDICARE until I am 65, unless they change the rules. IS ALL OF THIS UNFAIR?
YOU BET. Sadly, I have seen far too many young people suffer because of an entitled attitude that usually comes from being given too much money and too little moral education. Is the answer charter schools? Maybe, but usually only the wealthy can afford them. National Service of some kind is probably the answer, not sending the children of the poor to fight in foreign wars that most of the wealthy children do not serve in. Do we live in one Nation Under God? I sometimes wonder. Still, I say the pledge of allegiance, proud that both of my parents volunteered for World War II.
I can only hope that young people of conscience vote for the candidate who thinks and feels and loves their fellow women and men. Thank you for reading this.
Dogula please google contraception you are clearly uneducated on this subject and probably beleive that humans walked the earth before Dinosoaurs.
What we are arguing about is womens reproductive health not abortion.
Planned Parenthood and other doctors provide abortions for a low price to women who need them, with the use of funds from private donors. Most abortions are not funded by insurance.
Stop reading the Bible and pick up some 6th grade textbooks people.
You neoconservatives all have no solutions to our health problems just your bibles.