Uphill climb to allow mountain bikes on PCT
By Jessie Marchesseau
You could walk or ride a horse the 2,650 miles from Mexico to Canada along the Pacific Crest Trail, but don’t try to ride your bike.
Prohibited since 1988, riding a bicycle on the Pacific Crest Trail could cost you as much as $5,000 and six months in jail, though tickets normally run between $50 and $150.
The Pacific Crest Trail Reassessment Initiative is trying to change that. Since 2010, the group has been working to get the U.S. Forest Service to reconsider the ban on bicycles. It contends that the trail was never meant to be a foot- and equestrian-only trail, but mountain biking, which began to gain popularity in the 1980s, simply did not exist when the trail was originally developed.
The junction of the Tahoe Rim Trail and Pacific Crest Trail at Meiss Meadow. Photo/Ben Fish
The PCT has been around since the 1930s and stretches through California, Oregon and Washington. In 1968, it was designated a National Scenic Trail by the National Trails System Act. It was not until 1988 that the PCT Advisory Council unanimously agreed to ban bicycles on the entire trail.
Bicycles are already prohibited in all National Wilderness Areas, and the PCT runs through more designated wilderness areas than any other National Scenic Trail. About 46 percent of it is in wilderness areas. This includes the Desolation and Granite Chief wilderness areas near the Lake Tahoe Basin. Of the nearly 50 miles of the PCT within the Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit, 21.8 are in designated wilderness areas. It is the other 26.7 miles that the PCTRI is trying to gain access to, along with the rest of the non-wilderness portions of the PCT.
Part of that mileage is the Tahoe Rim Trail. As a multi-use trail, the Rim Trail allows bicycles on most non-wilderness sections, but it also shares part of its route with the PCT. As a result, the West Shore section of the Rim Trail is essentially a bicycle-free zone.
In the Lake Tahoe area, several popular mountain bike trails also intersect or run into the PCT. Having access to the trail, especially in the non-wilderness area between Meiss Meadow and Echo Lake, would allow riders to easily transition from one trail to another.
“As a local mountain biker in South Lake Tahoe, I can attest that having some sections open to bikes on the PCT in non-wilderness areas would greatly improve connectivity of some trails such as Hawley Grade, Round Lake, Sayles Canyon, Brian Meadow and Pony Express,” said Ben Fish, an avid South Shore mountain biker.
However, Beth Boyst, PCT program manager with the USFS, said that even opening small sections to allow access between popular mountain bike trails is unlikely.
“When you start changing things a little bit, you get a slippery slope of changing the trail experience,” she told Lake Tahoe News.
This idea of “changing the trail experience” is a big part of why some people, hikers and USFS officials alike, are opposed to the idea of bicycles on the trail. Online forums reveal that some users believe mountain bikes would disturb the overall serenity of the trail. Others fear bicycles would frighten horses.
“This experience is about being able to commune with nature in a peaceful environment, away from the trappings of civilization,” said Mark Larabee, spokesman for the Pacific Crest Trail Association. “PCTA holds that trail experience in the highest regard.”
The PCTA is a nonprofit organization whose mission is to “protect, preserve and promote the Pacific Crest National Scenic Trail as an internationally significant resource for the enjoyment of hikers and equestrians, and for the value that wild and scenic lands provide to all people.” It is the USFS’s primary provider of trail maintenance for the trail. Last year, PCTA volunteers contributed more than 92,000 hours.
This is one area the PCTRI suggests that mountain bikers could benefit the trail. In 2011, International Mountain Bicycling Association-affiliated organizations across the U.S. collectively put in more than 700,000 volunteer hours maintaining public bicycle trails.
“They’re always struggling to find more volunteers and funding,” Jeff Barker, a PCTRI supporter and advocate, told Lake Tahoe News. “The mountain bike community could bring a lot of people and money to the cause. Bikers are a community that is enthusiastic about trail maintenance.”
Lake Tahoe has one of the largest networks of mountain bike trails in the state. The Tahoe Area Mountain Biking Association alone put in about 2,000 volunteer hours of trail maintenance in 2012.
“It is obviously a passionate issue for many and TAMBA is maintaining a neutral approach to it for now,” said TAMBA President Kevin Joell of the PCT initiative. “I can say that if sections are ever opened to bikes in our area, that we would be happy to assist with maintenance as we have on many other trails around the lake.”
However, it does not look like that will be any time soon. On Feb. 5, Randy Moore, Pacific Southwest regional forester for the USFS, issued a letter to the PCTRI stating that the Forest Service will not be pursuing a termination of the bicycle closure or any amendments to the PCT management plan.
There is more to it than just changing the rules, Boyst pointed out. Studies would have to be done to determine the ramifications of a different use and increased usage. Bicycle trails must take different erosion issues into consideration than footpaths, and the PCT was originally designed for foot and horse traffic.
Moore and Boyst insist the trail was always intended to be exclusively a footpath and equestrian trail. Supporters of the PCTRI insist it was intended for all non-motorized use, bicycles included. Both groups cite the National Trails System Act and the PCT Comprehensive Management Plan to support their respective positions.
So while the two sides continue to hash out the semantics of the governing documents, outdoorsmen can still enjoy the splendor of the Pacific Crest Trail … on foot or horseback.
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For more info, on the Pacific Crest Trail — go online.
For more info, on the Pacific Crest Trail Reassessment Initiative, go online.
Why can’t the bikers leave something to just the hikers and riders. The Biking community have taken over most of the trails in the Tahoe Basin and are continually working on many other parts of the country to dominate the trails.
I certainly hope you lose this case.
Great article Jessie. As someone who has spent a lot of time both hiking and mountain biking all around Tahoe I am one that really enjoys having some trails only for hikers. While it is fun riding the single track the hiking experience is totally different on trails popular with bikers.
What about horses and all the fecal matter they leave for you to walk over and to filter out of your water. That’s really an experience to remember.. Sorry, but ill take a bicyclist any day.
Horse tails: “Why can’t the bikers leave something to just the hikers and riders?”
That’s what Wilderness is for. There’s more than enough Wilderness around here if you can’t share trails with other user groups.
The real question is why aren’t horse owners required to clean up after their horses? The amount of “debris” that they leave is atrocious and certainly takes away from the serenity and beauty of nature. At the very least they should be required to deposit the remnants off trail and out of sight.
Horses destroy trails and the riders do not clean up the horse droppings leaving c-r-a-p on the trails. Mountain Bikes should be allowed on all trails including wilderness and the PCT. The horse people tend to be big money people and influence politics for the worse.
I thought PCT stood for Preferred Cyclist Trail? There are many trials where user groups work together. The PCT should be no different.
I worked trail mintenance in and out of the wilderness for years and people are some of the worst offenders for leaving behind toilet paper and big stinkly piles too. Its not just horses. The Wilderness act was written and passed long before mountain bikes were here and It is one of the few pieces of legislation that should be left alone, in my humble opinion. Ive been run off steep trails by mountain bikers who think they are the
kings of the trails” and they very seldom stay on trails because they want to make their own way. There are rogue riders, rogue hikers, rogue horseback riders, someone in every user group that ruins it for everyone. I would bet if a biker had bikle trouble back in the wilderness they would just dump their bike to hike out and leave it there. That is why they should not be allowed into Wilderness.
I’ve stopped hiking many (most) of my favorite trails due to mountain bikers. I’m tired of dangerous riders who always demand that I move off the trail, usually while they come screaming down a hill. They are rude, damage meadows, leave skid marks on rocks and need to be controlled. We don’t need more bike freeways to connect around Tahoe, we need more routes dedicated to hikers. I would rather step in horse apples all day than break a leg in the back country from an irresponsible biker.
Hay guy’s that horse manure is the best fertilizer you can find for the back country. Since trails are for horses, that includes all that goes with it.
Put on your big girl panties and deal with it.
I find it ironic that a horse rider who sits 6 feet up in the air, oblivious to what is taking place on the ground, tell everyone else that manure is no big deal and to “put on our big girl pants.” If its so great why don’t you remove the great nutrient and take it home? I don’t want it and did not ask for it.
This is much ado about nothing, short of a few vocal whiners who desperately want to claim the PCT as their own personal playground.
Make bikes legal, promote responsible trail etiquette, and take advantage of a large and enthusiastic user group to help maintain and preserve the PCT.
The biggest issue is who does the maintenance? The Forest Service certainly does not. Other than densely populated and wilderness areas there are huge sections of trail that are never maintained and are being lost. Priority should be taking care of the trail for future generations to enjoy and mountain bikers time and time again show that they will work to preserve and maintain on a much broader scale than other user groups in Tahoe and to the North.
As for comments about being sick of mountain bikers barrelling down trails, there are nudnicks in every user group. It’s no different when a hiker cuts a switchback or a horse punches holes into the trail. Many of the original or older sections of trail were not properly built in the first place. In my 30 years living here when hiking the PCT generally a hiker or horesman will walk around a log creating new trail vs. clearing the debris. If you say this is incorrect, we can talk at the next trail day.
As for the Forest Service if it involves work they will just say no or pile senseless regulation to make anything almost impossible. They need to always keep in mind that it is the public for whom they work for and there decisions can be devastating. Remember the old pastime called logging?
There’s plenty of room for everybody on the PCT (I hike and bike). Banning bikes on trails is as outdated as banning snowboards at resorts. Mountain bikers do the majority of trail work in most of the areas where they ride, and they bring in lots of money to the local economies. My girlfriend and I moved to the Bay Area (San Jose) to be close to our favorite trails, and we will be going to Tahoe this summer to ride–and work on the trails. Many of our friends, however, skip Tahoe and go to Downieville because they’re so much more bike friendly.
PCT has it backwards. Horses destroy the backwoods experience, not bicycles. They smell up and chew up
the trails.
I’m a hiker that supports getting more like-minded people involved with the TRT and PCT. It’s how conservation works. I find no shortage of places to hike in solitude in the basin, and adding bicyclists to the couple dozen miles on the Western side shouldn’t be skin off anyone’s back. Only the most determined cyclists will utilize the trail between Donner Summit and Granite Chief, as there are no parking lots or roads along the trail to take advantage of (as is the case on the Eastern side).
I have been using the PCT trail for over half a century. Ride both mountain bikes and horses. Every time I have ridden a section of the PCT on my MTB… I leave no trace, yet pick up a pack load of trash left by other trail users. Hmmmm
Yet, I’m the one who would be ticketed and fined.
so if the mtn bikers get their way then the next group to fight for access will be the ATV users and then the off road jeepers then why not just pave the PCT and any other trail system through Wilderness and let ma and pa and the kids drive to the new McDonalds along the way. Dont you guys get it. Its WILDERNESS I think everyone except critters should stay out. Are there no more sacred places that should jsut exist because they do? Apparently not now that the Mtn. Biklers think its their right to ride through it. WOW!
nature bat – Actually, it’s not Wilderness. Cyclists are asking to ride the NON-wilderness sections of the PCT, and much of the PCT in CA would not be open to bikes under the proposal, due to the Wilderness designation. That was pretty clearly spelled out in the article. The fallacy of slippery slope is quite tired, though I agree with you that some places would be better off with fewer human visitors. The non-W PCT is not one of those places, however.
Having thru-hiked the entire CA PCT, I have a very good sense of the trail and surrounding habitat. As a trail crew leader, I’ve spent many, many hours building and maintaining trail, and my experience is that remote trails work can benefit from a multi-use designation, when people act like adults and agree to get along. Additional use, trailwork, and an increase in donated $ are a good thing.
the issue is keeping the bikers out of designated Wilderness and many of the responders stated they would ride into the wilderness anyway and that is the point im making. Will these users stop at the boundary? doubtfull. The Wilderness areas that are designated are that way for a reason and many people fought a long and hard battle to keep these areas off limits to mechanized and mechanical means of transportation.Not to be elietists but to just keep wild areas wild. Mountain bikes wernt around and now that they are its all of a sudden a big thing for people who never had the access on bikes to cry fowl, like they had the use taken away when they never had it in the first place. There are miles and miles of bike friendly trails and if that isnt enough then they just have to get over it. At what point is access to what you have enough? If these trail users are so into the wild and scenic nature of these lands and conservation is really a issue and concern that they would understand better why the law is in place.
Nature Bats- who get’s to decide what “enough” is? If the Government were somehow to decide that humans are no longer allowed to enter Designated Wilderness, is that better or worse for the Wilderness in the long run (think “developers”)? If humans were banned from Wilderness, surely there are enough other trails for us to hike, no?
The rules of Federally designated Wilderness say organized events/competitions are not allowed, yet in our own Granite Chief Wilderness, the Western States 100 Endurance Run and the Tevis Cup are allowed to hold their races through the Wilderness. Surely favoritism plays a role in who can do what where.
Logical fallacies used in James comment: slippery slope and strawman.
We know that bikers will go off trail. That is unacceptable in Wilderness areas.
It is very disappointing that LakeTahoeNews has yet to run a story on the Tahoe Area Mountain Biking Association in the running for $30k from Bell Bike helmets. It is a project that showcases all of the hard work TAMBA is putting in to improve recreation in the basin and maintain a positive relationship with our USFS. It’s too bad they would rather focus on the PCT Reassessment instead of real progress and change.
‘Nature Bat’ and ‘Thing Fish’ are funny.
First, ‘Nature Bat’, you wrote “like they had the use taken away when they never had it in the first place”
Bikes were legal on the PCT until 1988
Secondly, ‘Thing Fish’ you wrote “We know that bikers will go off trail”.
We know currently that hikers go off trail – what does that have to do with anything?
Kevin P once again I am reffering to designated Wilderness. Parts of the PCT are not in designated Wilderness. Maybe you need to look at a map. Yes, hikers do go off the trails. All you need to do is follow the toilet paper trails. Once again im reffering to designated Wilderness. Like I stated, id like to see nothing in designated Wilderness but that is my “pie in the sky”.
James If you think that someone running on a trail through the Wilderness is in direct conflict with the laws that govern the use of that land than file a complaint and have it stopped. Im certainly not the person to ask. Call the Forest Service and file a FOIA claim and do the paperwork and you can have that changed. The Forest Service is a Public Agency that has to answer to the public and if you think they are in conflict with one of the laws that they are in charge of enforceing than be the one to have it brought to their attention. You have that right. I would be perfectly happy if the people(the government) decided that no one should be allowed into designated Wilderness areas. That wouldnt hurt my feelings at all.Or that there were no trails through Designated Wilderness and there were signs as you enter stating ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK.
Amy,
Apparently you missed this March 4 item about the contest: https://www.laketahoenews.net/2013/03/snippets-about-lake-tahoe-512/
LTN staff
If you look at the 1982 Comprehensive Plan for the Pacific Crest Trail, all the specification drawings feature hikers and horseback riders. That’s a really good indication that Mountain Bikes were never an intended use for the trail. True, there were not any rules against Mountain biking on the PCT before 1988, but then there were not any Internet Security Laws before 1996. And at some point there were no traffic laws either.
Mountain Bikers would be better served if they would promote the Bell Helmet $30,000 contest to help mountain biking trails in the Tahoe region, rather than trying to weasel in on a trail meant for other users. There should have been a big article about the Bell Helmet Contest, and just a small mention about this, not the other way around.
I believe there are many users like myself who enjoy both mountain biking and hiking. I love riding the great stuff at Tahoe cross-country, page meadows, or the emigrant trail. But when it is time to hike I go to the Pct so I can relax and not have to worry about a biker roaring around a corner. We have lots of trails around Tahoe for everybody, but not every trail needs to be available for every user.
Opening the non wilderness PCT to cyclists should be a non issue. Hikers, HOHAs and elitists of all stripes will still have 50 million acres in the lower 48 for their exclusive use. Learn to share people, it’s not that hard.
One thing is for sure: everyone should expect a net increase in cyclists on the PCT this summer now that everybody knows that the legality of the closure order is questionable.
I’m expecting less Mountain Bike Riders on the PCT this year now that there has been more publicity letting people know that it is illegal.
The Closure Order is Legal, and even the people heading up this whole “Ruining the PCT” movement have mentioned the method it is legal.
Bottom line: if you’re riding on the PCT, you’re intentionally trying to ruin the experience of the intended users of the trail.
This is a case of a user group getting their “way” a couple decades ago, before the mountain bicyclists were organized and had a say in the matter; people getting used to that “way” over the years; the bicyclists calling the USDA Forest Service to task many years later; and my old employer not wanting to do their job, nor live up to it’s mission of “sustaining the health, diversity, and productivity of the Nation’s forests and grasslands to meet the needs of present and future generations.”
Nobody wants to ruin anybody’s experience. If the view of another user on the trail ruins your experience, you can only blame yourself. To such a person, I would recommend to stay home to avoid the view of any potential disturbance in the force. Looking forward to summer!!
Retired Ranger: I think the Forest Service is doing their job here by protecting the trail for it’s intended users. There are plenty of places for mountain bikers to ride and if they put there efforts together, they could build more mountain biking trails without ruining the experiences of hikers and horseback riders.
Zeb, if Mountain Biker scares away wildlife from the trail that a hiker would have seen, it’s obvious that you’d have to blame the Mountain Biker, not the hiker.
Mountain Bikers continue to downplay the importance of the hiker’s experience. It’s a shame that you guys are so selfish that you’d want to ruin the experience for someone else.
In all my years of hiking along the Crest, I’ve never seen any mountain bikers between Echo Summit and the northern terminus of Desolation Wilderness. I believe our local bike riders are pretty respectful of the Wilderness rules. I have seen some bikers between Barker Pass and Twin Peaks as well as a few near Tinkers Knob, but all were friendly and courteous as far as I can recall. I remember the fellows at Tinkers Knob said they had ridden up from Squaw Valley – WOW! One guy even offered me a snack. Tman- you must have run into some out of towners. As you probably know, the locals around here are good people =)
I think Tman lives in Michigan and has never set foot on the PCT, either in Lake Tahoe or anywhere else. That would explain the difference between Katrina S.’s experience and his opinion.
Mais oui, Marc.
Marc, I am a cheesy cheesehead from Wisconsin.
It’s obvious that if Mountain Bikers are allowed on the Trail that some sections of the PCT will be overrun by bikes, thus hiking and horseback riders will no longer be the primary users of the trail as intended. I think Katrina’s experience of only meeting a few mountains on the trail would no longer be the norm if Mountain bikers are allowed on the trail.
I’m glad the forest service is doing it’s job by protecting the trail for it’s intended users.
I’m sure if there is a mountain biking trail, and all of a sudden some ATV’s wanted to use it, you guys would have some problems with it. Your user experience would be changed if ATV’s were allowed on your trail.
Mr. Tman, I am corrected then about your location. Go Green Bay!
In Canada we do not have these disputations (?). On the trail everything is agreeable. The horse, the bike, the walker. In Quebec there are also Réserves écologiques (I think like your wilderness reserves) with no one allowed in most of them including to walk. No one allowed at all. Here is a link. (Sorry, it is in French.) Perhaps that would be better for the areas around Lake Tahoe too?
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9serves_%C3%A9cologiques_du_Qu%C3%A9bec
It is a shame that hikers continue to downplay the importance of the bikers experience and continue to use tactics like telling people the trail will be overrun with bikers. I routinely ride in the Laguna mountains on a trail that runs close to the PCT. It is one of the most popular MTB trails in my area and I may see 1 or 2 other bikers on a 2-4 hour ride on a Saturday. I constantly hear worries about the effects of bikes on wildlife on the PCT but dogs are allowed to be off leash! So a dog chasing wildlife, pissing and crapping on the trail is ok? If you guys really cared about wildlife you would leave your dogs at home.
Beth Boyst attitude is exactly why I plan to ride the PCT this year more than ever.
TMan do you think mountain bikers don’t know riding the PCT is illgal before this initiative? dang you not to bright, expect more riders than ever before
Come on Marc, not every trail in Canada is Multiuse. Just check out this link: http://www.canadatrails.ca/hiking/
And Me, I don’t approve of irresponsible dog owners either. And the truth is that nobody knows how much bike traffic the PCT will have if it’s legalized. The PCT is one of the most famous trails on earth. It’s likely to draw plenty of riders.
A Pee Ryder, having a personal grudge with a forest ranger is your motivation for riding the trail? And you thought I’m not too bright?
This is a good initiative for everyone but the .07% of trail users that can’t deal with sharing trails with bicycles. Fortunately, that tiny percentage of people have a lot of grey hair and won’t be around to keep this 30 year old battle going for too much longer.
Ask a 20 year old if the sight of a bicycle in the forest is offensive to them.
I would bet the average MTB rider is in his or her 30’s well employed and very active outdoors. Those bikes are running to the 6 to 8 THOUSAND dollar range these days. Its an interesting demographic.
Also full disclose, that flow track in contention for the Bell Helmet funds. That is not the model you want to look at for TRT or PCT. You do not want to be anywhere near that track on foot or Horseback. That,s Flowing jumps and features through the woods. Fun to hike next too and watch, but you would most likely die if trying to walk up the middle of a flow track on foot.
TMAN I probably should have made my comment clearer, sorry about that.
Beth Boyst attitude, the vocal minority like TMAN, and the Sierra club continually pushing to make more wilderness in order to push us out is exactly why I plan to ride the PCT this year more than ever.
The FS did no study when they banned bikes back in 1998, they simply wrote the forest service order based on the urging of the Sierra club and the PCTA. The Rangers that signed the order said that it did not even occur to them the bikers would want to use the trail. Those same rangers that signed the order think it would be ok to open the non-wilderness areas of the PCT to bikes today.
The Forest Service did not reaffirm the ban recently they simply decided not to take any action and it will probably take a lawsuit to get them to reevaluate like by their own rules should have been done many years ago. I can’t blame them it’s opening a can a worms that is going to create a lot of work for them in a time of yearly budget cutbacks, not to mention dealing with the backlash of the vocal minority like yourself t-man.
So yes, myself and others will continue to ride the PCT like we have for years, so forest service will most likely still not give a crap and passively let it continue as they have in the past.
Ride it, be super nice and yield to other users we can all get along.
Pee Rider
I think that you’re setting a really bad example by saying you are going to continue to ride on the PCT. The first rule of Mountain Biking according to the IMBA is to “Ride Open Trails.” It think you and others are giving Mountain biking a bad name by continuing to ride on a National Scenic Trail where mountain biking is banned. Perhaps you can put an American Flag on the ground and ride all over it. It’s about the same thing as riding on the PCT
^^^ definition of “fanatic”
If bicycling on the PCT is like riding on the American flag, what are all those people and horses doing to the flag when they “relieve” themselves on the trail?!?
Tman, it’s a strip of dirt, give me a break. And it does not get much more American that fighting for what you think is right, happened over and over through history; stupid rules have been over turned by those willing to go against the system.
Would you be willing to share the upcoming reroute of the PCT which is going to reroute over bike legal trails today that is about to occur in the Sierra Buttes? Why is it ok for the PCT to just take over sections of trails as they have for years rename them the PCT and kick us out? These trails have been ridden by bikes for many years without conflict, there is no argument that they are unsuitable for bikes as they have been ridden for decades. So what do you say, think you can share a few miles of trails? Not that you would ever have to as your stuck in nowhere land USA trying to dictate use of a trail you will never set foot on.
Other National Scenic trails are successfully sharing the non wilderness sections of trails the PCT should be no different.
Friend of mine who hiked the entire PCT had this to say about
damage to the trail, in order of magnitude, was caused by:
1. Logging: Norcal and Oregon (very, very bad)
2. Motorcross bikes: Socal (very, very bad)
3. Horses – entire length (very bad)
3.5 Cows – (pretty darn bad)
4. Hikers – entire length (not too bad)
5. Bikes – (only saw a few tracks here and there; minimal)
Dam everyone is trampling the flag (insert rolleyes)
Boreal to Downieville with a shuttle back!!!
Tman wrote: “I’m sure if there is a mountain biking trail, and all of a sudden some ATV’s wanted to use it, you guys would have some problems with it. Your user experience would be changed if ATV’s were allowed on your trail.”
We’ve been sharing trails in the Downieville area with motos, mt bikes, hikers, ATVs and even horses since forever! Everyone gets along fine! No problem! Conflict is perception based. Conflict is what your mind wants it to be. User experience is determined by YOU! A bicycle, ATV, airplane, bear, downpour, or blister on your toe won’t ruin your experience unless you let it (or the bear attacks)! They can all be part of the experience!
If they are planning a PCT reroute that would actual help Mountain Biking in the Lake Tahoe Area, what the heck are you complaining about.
And trail damage is not really the issue here, the trail experience is something to consider too. I will remind you what Tim wrote up above
“I believe there are many users like myself who enjoy both mountain biking and hiking. I love riding the great stuff at Tahoe cross-country, page meadows, or the emigrant trail. But when it is time to hike I go to the Pct so I can relax and not have to worry about a biker roaring around a corner. We have lots of trails around Tahoe for everybody, but not every trail needs to be available for every user.”
I agree with what Tim wrote especially “not every trail needs to be available for every user>
And Downeiville, you didn’t answer my question correctly. You cited a case where ATVs and Mountain bikes have been sharing since the get go. What would you down if ATV’s wanted to ride on a Mountain Biking Only Trail?
And Other National Scenic Trails are hiker only trails also. Each Trail gets to decide what uses are suitable for the Trail. The PCT has decided it is to be a footpath for hikers and horseback riders. There’s nothing wrong with a trail just for foot travel.
I can’t think of any mt bike only trails. I suppose there are some at Northstar, but that’s a ski resort. A quad on single track doesn’t work so good though. Completely different footprint than 2 feet, 4 hooves and 2 wheels though! You can’t compare a bicycle to a quad!
And the PCT didn’t get to decide anything! The old fogeys who hate bikes and didn’t want to share an epic trail did! And they convinced the Forest Circus to follow suit! Did the bikers get any say?
I agree there’s nothing wrong with trails just for antisocial hikers and/or horses… maybe a 5 mile trail here or a 10 mile trail there, but not a 2,000 mile, public masterpiece like the PCT!! Get with the times!
Hey Downie
I’ve looked at the Comprehensive Plan for the Pacific Crest Trail which was written in 1980. All the specifications for the trail, including the drawings, are for hikers and horseback riders. Now that’s the Comprehensive Plan and it doesn’t include bicycles. And other National Scenic Trails like the AT and NCT are doing just fine as a “hiking only” trail without even horses. That’s the way they were conceived and created. The PCT was conceived and created as a hiking and horseback riding trail.
I still say if Mountain bikers would have to share their trails with ATV’s and dirtbikes, it would change your trail experience. In that way it is a good example of how bicycles would change the trail experience for hikers and equestrians.
Right Now TAMBA is up for a $30,000 prize in the Bell Helmet Contest. They are neck and neck with Burke, Vermont. You guys should be concentrating on projects like that instead of ruining the trail experience for hikers and horseback riders.
If you haven’t voted in the Bell Helmet Contest, do so now. The Voting ends today
“If they are planning a PCT reroute that would actual help Mountain Biking in the Lake Tahoe Area, what the heck are you complaining about.”
What makes you think it’s better? every mountain biker I know hates it. It’s also not in the Lake Tahoe area it’s in the Sierra Buttes area so that shows how much you know (nothing sitting in nowhere USA).
Also goes to show the arguments against allowing bikes on the PCT because it was not built for bikes and the trail damage that will occur are worthless. Since the PCT will be taking over trails used for decades by mountain bikes and the old PCT will be given to bikers to use. The only reason people poached the PCT in that area was to connect to other trails, problem is the section being opened up cuts short of connecting anything, so it will be poached more than ever with this reroute.
PCT Rider wrote
“Also goes to show the arguments against allowing bikes on the PCT because it was not built for bikes and the trail damage that will occur are worthless.”
Yeah, like that’s the only argument against Mountain Biking on the PCT. Plus, I really don’t think it does go against that argument. Increased usage of the PCT will cause more damage. So, it doesn’t really matter what trail the PCT uses, more users = more damage.
“What makes you think it’s better?” Nothing makes me think it’s better. I haven’t seen the proposal so I really don’t know what to think. My comment was directed at your attitude that you’re not going to be happy no matter what.
As far as I’m concerned this whole mountain bikes on the PCT effort has been a huge waste of talent on Mountain Biker’s part. You guys should have been devoting your whole energy to winning the Bell Helmets Contest but your focus is elsewhere.
I do not yet have the energy to validate this but I believe on the west side of Tahoe, the Tahoe Rim Trail and the Pacific crest Trail are one in the same.
that is a conflict where access needs to be allowed. If not the Mountain bike Community is going to create Another TRT next to the PCT. How dumb would that be?
That’s true MTT but the West side of the lake the PCT/TRT run’s mostly through wilderness and such would not be considered for bikes under this initiative. Now the section of TRT/PCT above round lake and echo summit which cuts off access between many bike legal areas would be a perfect example and also between Donner summit and Sierra city both would connect up vast areas of bike legal trails to allow very long rides to be strung together.
MTT
I don’t see what’s wrong with building mountain biking trails to connect with the other trails. I don’t know the layout of the land in this particular case, but I am supportive of building mountain biking trails. I’m even okay with rerouting the PCT if it makes things better for everyone.
Tman wrote
“As far as I’m concerned this whole mountain bikes on the PCT effort has been a huge waste of talent on Mountain Biker’s part. You guys should have been devoting your whole energy to winning the Bell Helmets Contest but your focus is elsewhere.”
First of all bell grant in the Tahoe area for the corral trail is for a trail that already exists they are just adding features to it, so there is no new trail,and it does not provide the type of long distance riding folks are looking for.
Second of all how do you know how much time people put into either initiative? I’m involved financially or volunteering on 6 different trail projects right now, not including the PCT initiative which I’m doing nothing but commenting on.
Once again you show how uneducated you are on the subjects Tman
The flow track is a completely different type of MTB that is a smaller niche group.
The type of people who want to do the long TRT type rides (People like Me) are a much larger group
FYI last time I looks the we were in second place 30% to 32%.
Its close but unless there is a large surge for the Tahoe project we will lose by a hair., altho the track is a reality. regardless
You Guys are missing my point entirely. PCT Rider, even if you’re just commenting on the PCT, you could have been commenting someplace promoting the Bell Helmet contest for TAMBA instead. That could have put the TAMBA project over the top.
This whole bikes on the PCT effort has been a disaster for mountain biking. You should be concentrating on the six projects your working on, instead of trying to weasel in on a trail created and built for hikers and horseback riders. Like Tim wrote above “not every trail needs to be available for every user.”
T(odd)M(cM)a(ho)n: If we are wasting our time on this “disaster”, what are you doing??!? Instead of spending countless hours trolling websites about this topic, trying to tell locals “how it is” when you live in Wisconsin and have never been here, you could be spending your time getting bad people out of the Scouts. That would be honorable and far more important than going on and on about bicycles on a dirt trail.
MTT, the flow trail voting has ended, the good thing is it can still win! voting is just a part of it, hopefully it will win on its merits of working with the forest service and setting a model for that. The trail that won the vote is in a bike park that charges for use. The announcement will be tomorrow on who wins.
What disaster T-man has occurred from that, none that I see.
Oh well
BELL BUILT l Bell and IMBA Announce Bell Built Grant Winners!
According to your votes, the 2013 Bell Built Grant winners are:
• Pump track/bike park – Bear River Bike Park: Routt County Riders, Steamboat Springs, CO
• Flow trail – Burke Bike Park/Jay Peak Resort: Kingdom Trail Association, Burke, VT
• Downhill trail – Overflow Trail: Copper Harbor Trails Club, Copper Harbor, MI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9x32vRPV86I
My point was that if you concentrated on the Bell Helmets Contest the Tahoe Entry would have won outright, instead of having to rely on some other way of winning. I’m Sure the Burke, VT Project is worthy, so I’m guessing Tahoe has lost this one.
And Maxwell, stop harassing me. It really doesn’t matter where I live and what organizations I belong to.
Tman complete lack of logic is befuddling. How the hell do you know that the PCT effort took away from voting for the Tahoe project? That’s illogical on its face. You simply are making stuff up to support your silly claims. Remember: people will ride the PCT this summer while you’re hiking the flat lands.
Well there is still plenty of MTB (For now)
I will take the flume Trail, and a Shuttle Trip From Spooner Lake to Carson city Down Kings Canyon Road. That is a Nice MTB ride
Not to Mention what I can access out my front door.
I got another Flat today! even with the heavier slime tubes!!~
Zeb, what are you talking about? If you guys would have spent more time publicizing the Bell Helmet Contest, you guys obviously would have won. Any thing you did that didn’t promote that contest is taking away from it. So talking about the PCT is taking away from talking about the contest. It’s very logical. Remember bicycle riding on the PCT is against the rules and paints mountain bikers as rule breakers who don’t care about the trail, or anybody else. That statement is very logical, too.
“Any thing you did that didn’t promote that contest is taking away from it. So talking about the PCT is taking away from talking about the contest. It’s very logical”
That statement requires that the two advocacy activities are mutually exclusive (they aren’t) and that the resources available through volunteers/advocates are limited (they aren’t).
What passes for logic these days is shockingly poor.
I guess you don’t Ride MTB.
Again some people like to take Scenic trips on the Mountain bike, Travel great distances from A to B maybe even camp along the way.
Some like to coat down hill at speed hitting banked turns and flying over jumps.
Its two completely different things.
The Number of people who would actually want to travel the entire PCT on MTB is very very small. However Allot of people would like to travel the Tahoe Rim Trail. Or most likely just a piece of it. But the entire West Shore TRT is pretty much off limits to MTB because its Wilderness and PCT. that’s just stupid. There is allot of different types of MTB. and there is Allot of it in the Tahoe Basin. But some of the big ticket rides are off limits?
And South Shore is still trying to get those Bike paths in 20 YEARS after Bike Riding has Boomed back in a big way.
TMan, people like you that will oppose legal riding on the PCT at any cost actually encourage illegal riding on the PCT. Since no amount of rational argumentation will ever win you (or people like you) over, many cyclists come to the conclusion that they may as well ride the PCT illegally. Not riding it will not get rabid antis to change their mind, so riding it illegally won’t make things any worse. In the Tahoe basin, the PCT bisects a lot of potentially great rides. People will certainly ride portions of the PCT this summer.
2013: summer of mountain biking disobedience. :)
Todd- regarding every illogical thing you’ve posted in this comment forum (and the other 10 you troll), this summarizes my thoughts about you:
http://youtu.be/5hfYJsQAhl0
Again, I will refer you to Tim’s Post above. He enjoys the Mountain Biking Trails in the Tahoe Area. “But when it is time to hike I go to the Pct so I can relax and not have to worry about a biker roaring around a corner.”
Mr. Tman, please stop quoting me. You not the type of hiker I like to associate with. You are an extremist. In fact, I’m changing my opinion on this matter. I’d like to ride on the PCT as well. If I want to hike where bicycles aren’t, I’ll explore more of Desolation and Granite Chief Wilderness. Quote that.
I
Decided to put in the work and overlay the PCT to the TRT. and look at maps for both.
The only area where Bikes are restricted appears to be 5 miles of Trail Around Baker Pass? there might be more.
But generally there are different routes.
there really needs to be an override for this stretch of Trail.
It really is just silly. If the PCT has annexed a commonly used route in an area. They cannot just lay down restrictions that would not have been there if it were not now a part of the PCT.
For South Shore MTB the real issue looks to be South And West of Echo Lake.
http://www.tahoerimtrail.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=180&Itemid=213
Edit, I have observed that many of the Pictures on the Tahoe Rim Trail Website feature Mountain Bikes. Wink Wink.
OK I stand corrected.
I did some more reading FYI the TRT Website is pretty darn good.
https://www.laketahoenews.net/2013/04/uphill-climb-to-allow-mountain-bikes-on-pct/
“Where Can I Ride my Bike on the TRT?
Mountain bikes can be ridden on just over 50% of the Tahoe Rim Trail. Below is a listing of all segments of the TRT and details on mountain biking opportunities on each segment.” >>>Hit link for more detail
Bottom line, You cannot ride a Mountain bike From the North Shore to the South Shore On Trails around the East Side or West Side of the Lake. You are Blocked in multiple places in either direction.
what a shame
I pasted the wrong Link!
http://www.tahoerimtrail.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=140&Itemid=157
As a hiker there is nothing worse than running into a group with horses. They defecate all over the place, bring in flies, cause loads of trail damage, raise tons of dust, and more. If there is a user group that should be discriminated against inasmuch as trails are concerned, it is those on horseback. Just my opinion.
And for those comparing bikes to ATV’s and motorcycles. Really poor analogy. Noise vs no noise. Motorized vs non-motorized. Very destructive to trail vs not destructive to trails.
I understand why the hikers don’t want the mountain bikers. Of course they want to be in solitude. But frankly, that’s too bad. I pay taxes just as they do and that is public land. My land to use just as much as it is theirs. It’s that simple. Mountain biking does not hurt the land, so it’s my right to use it just as much as anyone else’s. Period.
Personally hikers are a pain in the ass to deal with and I’d prefer they were not there. But I’m willing to compromise, as it’s their right to use the trails also.
First of all Tim, I am not an extremist. I support Mountain Biking Trails and go Mountain Biking myself. But the PCT was built by and for Hikers and Horseback Riders. Other National Scenic Trails were built only for hiking. Even other National Scenic Trails do allow Mountain Biking, and were built for it. And there are plenty of hikers that are on the PCT for some peace and relaxation that don’t want Mountain Bikes barging down the trail at them.
Darren, you pay taxes for Airport Runways that you can’t ride your mountain bike on. They were built for a different type of transportation than Mountain Biking. Same thing with the PCT. There is plenty of space in the forest, and I am very supportive of new Mountain biking trails. But trying to weasel in on another user’s trail, that’s just plain wrong
Once again, Tman, your lack of local knowledge, your irrational justifications, your assumptions that comparable mtb-legal trails could simply be built in the next 20 years, and your straw man arguments lead to this response: http://youtu.be/5hfYJsQAhl0
I can’t wait until the mt. bikers organize and regain access to sections of the North Country National Scenic Trail that have been taken away from them because of an NCT sign being placed on a trailhead! It’s gonna happen!
Maxwell
In Northern Wisconsin the CAMBA mountain biking trail system has more miles of trail than the NCT. Their trails cross the NCT several times and yet there are no reports of bicyclists poaching the trail. I salute them. They actually built their own trail system without trying to weasel their way on another user’s trail
You guys could learn a lot from them.
And remember what your fellow mountain biker Brady Robinson said “But we can’t go everywhere, and we can’t do whatever we want. And we don’t have a God given or Constitutional Right to do so.”
It doesn’t matter if I have a lack of local knowledge because even Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer knows it’s wrong to ride a bike on a hiking and horseback riding only trail.
Brady Robinson wish’s the sharing the PCT Initiative luck, way to take a quote and try to turn it around
It’s morally perfectly fine to ride the PCT. And that’s what people are going to do. Since the USFS has no desire to enforce it.