S. Tahoe council to vote again on plastic bag ban
By Kathryn Reed
If South Lake Tahoe adopts an ordinance banning plastic bags, it is likely it would not be the law of the land until 2014. This is because the ordinance as written takes three months to be implemented and the council isn’t likely to vote on it until late summer, early fall.
A group of bag-ban supporters were at today’s City Council meeting advocating the electeds implement the ordinance that was voted down in January. The advocates came back with more information as was requested by the council at the time.
No longer does the city have a Sustainability Commission. It was axed at the same meeting the bag ban was defeated. But a group has formed to be a committee focusing on sustainable issues in the city.
Karen Fink, who is part of that group, pointed out that consumers are already paying for bags from stores – it just isn’t overt. There also isn’t a choice because it’s incorporated into the price of goods sold, much like any overhead expense.
Most of the 76 communities in the state that have plastic bag bans allow stores to use plastic and paper at a 5 or 10 cent charge per bag to the consumer.
Some talk on June 11 was about whether the fee would impact lower income individuals unjustly.
Julie Lowe, a plastic bag ban proponent, told the council, “It’s more of a problem with the affluent. We consume more and waste more. I feel the low income are way ahead of us.”
Darcie Collins with the League to Save Lake Tahoe said her group supports the ban. While no one from the Lake Tahoe South Shore Chamber of Commerce spoke, it was relayed that that board and the majority of the membership support a ban.
Supporters also believe such a ban would send a message to tourists that South Lake Tahoe is environmentally friendly.
Mayor Tom Davis said with the League, Sierra Club and Tahoe Regional Planning Agency having offices on the South Shore that in itself shows the area is environmentally friendly.
Davis and Councilwoman JoAnn Conner remain strong voices against the ban. Davis in particular said he does not see a problem. This was right after he cited how much trash Clean Tahoe picks up. He also said he drove around town and didn’t see an issue with plastic bags blowing around.
But the errant bags are found at the bottom of waterways, in bushes, meadows and elsewhere that a motorist would not see.
Conner said recreationists she knows don’t believe there is a problem either.
“We’re still looking at legislating personal behavior,” Conner said.
Councilwomen Angela Swanson and Brooke Laine are in lockstep in wanting the issue to come back for a vote. Swanson was not at the January meeting and Laine was not on the council then.
Councilman Hal Cole wants something done about the bags, but also would like some leeway for nonprofits like the food banks that fill bags for the needy to take with them.
Even though the California Legislature earlier this year voted against a statewide ban, the California Grocers Association came out in support of it.
Why do we have to keep fighting the same battles over and over again? The bag-nannies just won’t quit until they wear us down and get their way. Like spoiled toddlers.
This needs no further studies or contemplation. Ban the plastic bags. To say they are not a problem is not based in reality. There is a garbage plume filled with plastic the size of Texas floating in the Pacific ocean. Every year my wife and I pick up trash from the neighboring lots, it would be nice to pick up less plastic.
The proponents of the ban say that “consumers are already paying for bags from stores – it just isn’t overt. There also isn’t a choice because it’s incorporated into the price of goods sold, much like any overhead expense.”
So can we assume that if the ordinance passes, the cost of groceries will go down if you bring your own bags? Or will consumers who use a plastic bag have to pay for the bag twice?
I think all the pro-plastic bag folks should have a demonstration where they all get together and march around town with bags tied firmly around their heads to show their solidarity with pollution and fossil fuel based products.
What a bunch of garbage. The fact that the council wastes their time and taxpayer resources on this nonsense is truly pathetic. People in this community need jobs. If you don’t want to use a plastic bag, don’t. But to waste taxpayer resources on this matter is just downright offensive. It shows that the City of South Lake Tahoe doesn’t really have better things to do.
“We’re still looking at legislating personal behavior,” Conner said.
Hats off to JoAnn Conner for seeing through this folly.
A.B.,
Do you even know how sadly funny your “What a bunch of garbage” statement is?…. I’m betting the No you don’t.
I went to this meeting and after I left, I saw 2 plastic bags off of the road that were very visible. I’m not sure where Mayor Davis hangs out but hwy 89 has a ripped bag visible from the road and so does 12th street. Other than that, this issue should not be ONLY about litter. It is about protecting and saving the environment with the use of less plastic bags. When you look at other countries like Mexico and South Africa or states like Texas that already ban bags, it is sad that we can’t be more open minded on this issue. Also, to Ms. Swanson’s point about the fee going somewhere if you bring your own bag, Raleys at the Y deducts a percentage and provides it to some kind of organization already (previously the forest service and now food bank of Sacramento). I really hope that we can educate the council enough by the fall to do something that serves the environment of Lake Tahoe and its community.
I went to this meeting and after I left, I saw 2 plastic bags off of the road that were very visible. I’m not sure where Mayor Davis hangs out but hwy 89 has a ripped bag visible from the road and so does 12th street. Other than that, this issue should not be ONLY about litter. It is about protecting and saving the environment with the use of less plastic bags. When you look at other countries like Mexico and South Africa or states like Texas that already ban bags, it is sad that we can’t be more open minded on this issue. Also, to Ms. Swanson’s point about the fee going somewhere if you bring your own bag, Raleys at the Y deducts a percentage and provides it to some kind of organization already (previously the forest service and now food bank of Sacramento). I really hope that we can educate the council enough by the fall to do something that serves the environment of Lake Tahoe and its community.
Funny, it was the environmentalists who promoted the use of plastic bags to save the trees. Now they’ve changed their minds. Just like they changed their minds from the horror of a new ice age coming, to global warming, to simply, ‘climate change’ because they can’t make their minds up.
It ought to be about science, not FASHION.
Fine the litterers. That is all.
Didn’t we go to plastic bags to save a tree?
JoAnn Conner continues to demonstrate her embarrassing, ineffective, simpleton, small-town mentality. “Recreationists she knows”? Perhaps expanding her circle of acquaintances would be of benefit. The “what I see from my limited viewpoint” justification is what keeps the City of SLT in a blighted state. Plastic bags are poison to the environment and wildlife (and ultimately mankind). It’s not a difficult concept. There’s no emotional value attached to them. They are not essential to our livelihood. Convenient, yes. Essential? No. There are alternatives. We live in a one-of-a-kind jewel of a locale. Environment stewardship is a huge priority. Plastic bags are, plain and simple, choking the globe and poisoning our environment. They are directly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of fish and mammals ever year. It shouldn’t matter if it isn’t “apparently” obvious in this area. BILLIONS every year go where? Why wouldn’t we do everything we can to be leaders? The Tahoe basin should be a role model for how we treat our waste and our green initiatives.
Ironically, this is another Featured Article on Lake Tahoe News.
https://www.laketahoenews.net/2013/06/trash-piling-up-on-ocean-floor-off-california-coast/
vote again,why?
I see that some are again attacking JoAnn Conner on a point well taken. Civil liberties trump all in our nation. Legislating personal behavior is not the role of government.
Don’t impose your will on others. We can all make choices without another law on the books. That was JoAnn’s point.
For all of those advocating a ban on plastic bags, how about a ban on disposable diapers? They cause far more harm to our environment than the plastic bags.
Does this ban bags from other states like Nevada I personally do more shopping in Nevada than California. And will be doing less in the city if this ban is law.
I asked this committee to come back with some ideas for public education and some incentives for people to possibly think more about their choices. For example, instead of mandating the stores charge for the bags, how about asking them if they would give a credit if you brought your own? I was told some stores already do this – I didn’t know that. That’s an education point.
How about asking some businesses if they would like to print their advertising on some bags and give them away at the stores? There were two ideas, bag sharing (give away your extra bags) and selling pull or push carts at cost at the stores.We have a huge walking-biking-bus riding community here, and it is mostly because many cannot afford vehicles.
We just don’t have a big problem here, and no David, we can’t force Nevada to enact the same ordinances we have here, and that point was brought up, with the same reaction you had.
This would hurt many in our town in varying ways.Five to ten cents per bag could be hundreds of dollars a year for an average family.
Jana, if you don’t want to eat an ice cream bar because of the wrapper, don’t. If you don’t want to reuse a plastic bag to pick up your dog poop, don’t.If you don’t want to be one of those people who carry those store plastic bags into nature to bring the trash you and others have left, don’t. If you don’t want to turn off more lights in your house to conserve our electrical resources, don’t.If you don’t want to keep the heat in your home down to 65 to conserve gas, don’t.
But being nasty and insulting is still not going to get me to agree it is the job of government to legislate personal choices, yours or others.If you were one of the people speaking there, I was probably recycling before you were born.That’s my choice, not the law.
Thank you JoAnn for a well written comment above! I couldn’t agree with you more.
I pick up plastic bags and containers almost every time I go out into the lake or to the beaches. It is an escalating problem. People are pigs when it comes to food wrappers.
I support a plastic bag ban – but NOT with a fee attached.
Grocery stores already have bagging supplies built into the cost of products you buy from them.
We already have enough agencies charging fees for bogus government programs.
JoAnn, the frustration is that you throw out all of these “ideas” without doing any homework. Call around and find out what a bag costs and what printing costs. Then is your idea feasible? The answer is no. How many give away bags can a retail establishment afford to stock? In retail space is precious. So the stores are supposed to give away space for free to stock enough bags to replace plastic? That cannot happen.
Have you done any checking into the cost or details of selling carts?
The point being an idea isn’t an idea until there is at least some work done to prove if it is even remotely feasible. I don’t see an idea in your post.
Los Angeles and San Francisco both have huge walking and biking communities and they seem to be doing just fine with their bag ban. If there is a plastic bag ban, most if not all, will use the canvas or other reusable bags which will be a one time charge if they don’t make their own and the 5-10 cent charge won’t be a concern. I love the fact that some of the people on the council have been living here for years and years but this seems to be limiting their view. I wish they could think outside of their box long enough to see that this is the way of the world and the sooner we do it, the better. Why can’t we take a stand to be green like we advertise? This would be a great way to set a good example for the younger generation also. Kings beach elementary school with it’s no plastic silverware idea is way ahead of us. Maybe they’re setting the example for the older generation?
if the mind set is that people will “self regulate” their choice to use plastic bags or not than the world is truly doomed. Too many people choose to do nothing until they are forced to do something. If the bags arent there to use than they will use what is there. Costco uses the boxes that their products came in to box up groceries. That is an innovation. Why cant the business that use plastic bags encourage their customers to have an alternative. Most of the reusable bags I have came from organizations that I support as a thank you gift. I havnt used a new plastic grocery bag for 20 years. Its not hard and if its not a choice anymore that will make the transition easier.
Interesting that Swanson wants to put a tax on paper bags. If the cost of paper bags is already in the price of the purchase then just make the ban on plastic bags. Otherwise we are just trying to regulate peoples behavior, which I generally don’t like unless it is a safety issue.
John, my “ideas” were education and incentive versus punishing other people until they do what I want.It’s a liberty issue, we have too many laws and ordinances in Tahoe as it is, and I just don’t believe the government should be legislating behavior in your own home.
Please note, some of those ideas did not come from me, they came from the public at the meeting. Not my job to do the research, we had an eleven hour Council meeting yesterday with two days of reading beforehand to be prepared. I’d say I did my share. Most of the people I hear from outside of the meeting do not want the ban.
The idea of using a bag with business advertising on it was just a suggestion; there are businesses who would do that. Again, the details are what I asked the committee to explore. I have two businesses that I work to pay my bills, so I actually do know what the bags cost, as I have had some printed in the past. It would be another option, not a law.
In Principle I agree With JoAnn.
You have litter laws on the books, enforce them.
I also hate the pig litter bugs
JoAnn, all human behavior can be explained by incentives, economic or other. If there is a problem with bags then tax them. The tax has to be high enough and publicized enough to modify behavior. If the city wants to be responsible with the money, use it for Clean Tahoe. If not then spend it however you want.
If you don’t want to do that, then pay people who bring in a reusable bag. The city cant do that…we are back to taxes.
If there is not a problem big enough to pass the tax, then quit wasting time on this issue.
If you don’t want to believe that we’re polluting Mother Earth to such an extent that we’re threatening the lives of our children and grandchildren then don’t. If you’re not willing to make simple changes like banning these stupid bags because it’s the right thing to do then don’t. If you don’t want to face up to reality because it might force you to wake the fig up then don’t. I know why the young people that raised hell at the Council meeting were PO’d, I was one of those hated hippies years ago who were told we were wrong about mindlessly trashing our water, air and soil. Well guess what morons… here we are and you are still in denial.
Taxes are not supposed to be a form of behavior modification. That IS, of course, how it turns out. Over tax my labor and I will do less of it. But government doesn’t deserve any money because stores provide a convenience to their customers. That’s assinine. If you see somebody littering, call ’em on it. If you REALLY care, you can put out some effort instead of making government take care of everything. I’ve chased down cars that threw out cigarette butts. Shame the litterers. It’ll work a lot better than a tax.
Dog show me where that is written down. If the city’s resident’s are fed up with plastic bags then the city’s resident’s can decide to tax their use to discourage their use.
Hey, knock yourself out, if you want to go try to chase every litterer down. But the citizens have every right to decide if plastic bag use is consistent with their environmental goals. If not then employ the only method that has ever worked, which is an economic incentive or disincentive.
A few clarifications on the article and comments —
1. The Council did not vote against the proposed Bring Your Own Bag (BYOB) ordinance in January, as stated in the article. They took no action, and asked that the issue be brought back with new information provided.
2. The Sustainability Commission had proposed to help lead an education campaign connected to the ordinance, but the Council disbanded the Commission. It’s an all volunteer effort of South Tahoe citizens leading this effort, not the Sustainability Commission or committee.
3. The proposed fee on paper bags is to help local businesses cover the cost of purchasing the bags, which are more expensive than plastic bags. With no fee, local businesses will lose money, which is not desired, and also create more use of paper bags, which also has a significant environmental impact. If we bring our own bags, local businesses will save money, which hopefully can be passed along in the form of lower prices, contributions to the community, etc.
4. Adding 5 or 10 cents per bag will not cost customers “hundreds of dollars per year.” Those who re-use their bags will pay nothing — since the ordinance won’t be in effect until the beginning of next year until passed, that’s a lot of time to stockpile bags. Or one could make a $5 investment in canvas bags and reuse them for years.
Here’s more perspective on this issue from the Town of Truckee, from a fact-filled response to concerns raised about a plastic bag ordinance there (http://www.townoftruckee.com/index.aspx?page=1305#Concern%208):
“Customers have the choice of buying a paper bag, using their own bag or simply not using a bag at all. If you choose to buy paper bags then you can always bring them back the next shopping trip. Reusable bags will certainly last longer than paper bags and can be washed but will be slightly more expensive up-front. Over time the reusable bag is much more economical than a paper bag and the waste of the single-use bags is diminished.
A socioeconomic analysis by Los Angeles County estimated the per-capita cost of switching from single-use to reusable bags was $5.72 15 whereas the hidden costs of using single-use bags is approximately $18-$30 per person a year 16.
Reusable bags also have the benefit of being larger and more durable than plastic or paper bags. Therefore each trip you will have less trips to carry your items up the stairs. If you have your own shopping basket, you won’t need to use bags at all; bring it from the store to your kitchen.
As for those quick trips to the store where you purchase one or two items, no bag is really necessary at all.
Many cities and counties exempt certain groups of people from a bag fee. If the ban is adopted, Town staff recommends that Truckee adopt exemptions similar to those cities. Those exempt in Truckee would include any customers participating in the California Special Supplemental Food Program for Women, Infants and Children 13 and any customer participating in the Supplemental Food Program , with a reusable bag or recycled paper bag at no cost at the point of sale 14.
Also, the Town of Truckee often distributes reusable bags at Town events and at Truckee Thursdays to help provide individuals with an alternative means of food transportation in our community.”
5. Prohibiting the use of plastic bags at retail establishments is not “legislating morality.” More than 50 other such ordinances have been passed in California not because use of plastic bags is “immoral”, but because those communities were making a public policy choice to reduce waste, reduce their environmental footprint, protect birds and fish, save businesses money, etc. The fact that you can’t smoke in bars, dump oil down the storm drain, or drive 100 mph down hwy. 50 is because laws were passed for the common good, even though each of these laws causes some personal inconvenience. Same idea here.
SPAM!
I can still buy my own plastic bags
Or nice reusable bags
http://www.uline.com/Grp_96/Plastic-Shopping-Bags
And A question, do the anti plastic people want just the Front checkout bags gone, or does this include the plastic bags in the Vegetable section also?
And how about the packaging for meat and Chicken?
When I do to the 7-11 and buy a Coke/Twinkee’s / pack of smokes. Do they have plastic bags? or are you just going after the Safeway/
and last, here in nevada every Grocery store offers both Paper and Plastic. They ask ask at the check out. (Except for Wallmart)
Do the south shore Safeway’s offer both?
Ms. Conner:
“…we had an eleven hour Council meeting yesterday with two days of reading beforehand to be prepared. I’d say I did my share.”
The City’s website says the meeting ran for 8-hours and 49-minutes and you didn’t have any closed session items to discuss so the meeting ended after the City Council comments. Did the 11-hours that you referred to include a lunch break?
I have a suggestion for the meetings to go more quickly: the Council members really need to be more succinct in their comments and if one Council member agrees with what another has said all they need to do is say that and not repeat everything that has already been said. Also, Council members should only need to state their positions on each agenda item once and not repeat them two, three, or even more times in what appears to be an attempt to either sway others opinions or to prove their point. I agree that an 8-hour and 49 minute meeting is exceedingly long and from a public viewers perspective the redundant comments only adds to the agony of trying to be informed on what the Council/City is doing.
Just think Ms. Conner, you’re not even one-quarter of the way through your term yet so you have another 3-years and 6-months to do “your share”. Looks like you’ll be doing a lot more reading, meeting, and talking.
In April I was in Aptos and went to Safeway and purchased two items and the cashier asked me if I wanted a paper bag and I said yes and was charged 25 cents for the bag. I did not know that plastic bags were banned. The cashier told me that when the ban on plastic bags was started the cost for a paper bag was 10 cents and has now risen to 25 cents. A friend told me that she and her husband went to Kauai, HI and went to the store not knowing you had to bring your own bags. The store didn’t even sell paper or canvas bags. They had to take all of their groceries out to their vehicle in the basket and put them in their car having no bags to put them in.
In South Lake Tahoe if there is a ban on plastic bags, will there be a charge for paper bags and who will set the fee? Many dog owners use plastic bags to scoop their dogs poop when they take them on walks. Many mothers use plastic bags to put dirty diapers in when they are out in public and need to change a dirty diaper.
Will the ban on plastic bags actually become another tax?
JoAnn – it’s a liberty issue? The God-given right to contribute to the pollution of our natural resources? Please join the rest of us in the 21st century.
“Just like they changed their minds from the horror of a new ice age coming, to global warming, to simply, ‘climate change’ because they can’t make their minds up.
It ought to be about science, not FASHION.”
Straw man, not factual, and complete misunderstanding of the vocabulary being used.
Typical.