Letter: We are not a Christian Nation
To the community,
A note for Kim Davis and her supporters:
1) Separation of church and state – No government endorsement of any particular religion. This should quiet all of you, but it doesn’t.
2) Kim you already compromised your beliefs with:
A) being divorced (multiple times)
B) Being an adulterer
C) Filing divorce papers for people
D) I would also guess that you might wear cotton/poly blends once in a while, eat shellfish and work on the Sabbath. (I could be wrong.)
E) Also, (this is from “your book”) –
1) Punish the sin, not the sinner
2) Let he who is without sin cast the first stone
3) Judge not, lest ye be judged
4) Love your neighbor as you would love yourself.
You need to follow all the rules, not just the ones you like.
3) Nobody is denying you your right to worship. They just want you to do the job you signed up for. A civil job in a civil capacity. If you cannot do the job, please resign. I’m sure God will provide for you if you quit your job. Have some faith.
4) Not everyone believes in your God. Please don’t let this upset you. If he/she/it is real, we are ultimately forgiven. Says so in “your book”.
5) One last note – We are not a “Christian Nation*. Yes, there are Christians here, but ultimately we are a nation of laws. Just because a lot of people here are jerks doesn’t mean we are a jerk nation.
* Some people assume that we are Christian Nation because we were founded by Freemasons. I’ll just mention that the only requirement for becoming a Freemason is that you believe in a “higher power”. They are not exclusively Christian. That could be any higher power – God, Zeus, Allah, Yahweh, Jesus, The FSM, Cthulhu, Beelzebub, Mephistopheles, Illuminati, Reptilian Shapeshifter, etc.
John Spinola, South Lake Tahoe
bravo, john. my experience has impressed on me that the majority of reflective, intelligent, honest people agree with your observations.
Isn’t it funny how most, but not all, Christians are so far removed from an actual “Christian” ideology?
And to you Christians, what exactly is the one true “Christian” ideology? You folks and your multiple sects are so all over the board on your interpretations of the same exact novel. It’s quite laughable!
Thanks John, a very nice and very “right on” note. We’ve never met (and since I post under a pseudonym, this hardly passes as a meeting), but I believe that you were at South Tahoe High about the same time my kids were there. Your letter speaks highly to the education you’ve received and now share – my children and grandchildren would fully agree with your sentiments. As do I.
Bravo! Religious extremism comes in many forms but ultimately it boils down to “if you don’t believe in what I believe, you must be purged “.
If there really is a God or Jesus, Buddha, Mohamed or whatever I think they would’ve been ashamed of your insensitivity to others that don’t believe in what you do.
And your supposedly a born again christian. What were you before you were born again?
The Pope is essentially the president of a book club that doesn’t change their book every month.
Uh, Rooster, who exactly is doing most of the “purging” these days? In the extreme sense of the word? I mean really?
Hell, most contemporary Christians would shoot Jesus if he showed up on their lawn…talking that commie crap of his and putting little kids on is lap.
Dogula, are Christians really being purged or are just fewer and fewer people buying into an ideology based on a 2000 year old NOVEL?
And why is it when Christians feel they should be able to impose their whacked ideology through government edicts it is really any different from Muslims trying to impose Sharia Law?
Christians are pretty vile creatures.
With a Bible in one hand and a copy of Atlas Shrugged in the other, the lunatic fringe soldiers on in support of dominionism.
America has become the land of Pagans.
you can see that by the moral decay.
you can also see it by the attitude of some of you folks.
the power of God and the forgiveness of Sins has not touched your lives.
if it had you would believe and be a changed person.
So Chief if you’re a supposed Christian, you’re an excellent example to keep me from going ANYWHERE near it!
One rule, it is golden. Fundamentalist Christens missed the mark by a mile.
Thanks for the facts.
Believe what you want, just dont come knocking on my door trying to push it on me or my family. Or be ready to hear my side of the discussion…
sin and salvation: money control fear shell game. you wanna buy in? fine with me. just stay out of government + education
Here is another thought:
Kim davis is a messenger from “god” who was given the task of thinning out the clown parade of potential presidential candidates by having huckabee and raphial cruz step out of line to help her in her quest to christian domination. Their misplaced allegience to support this hypocritical bible thumper has back fired in a big way, two down 16 (?) To go…IMHO
Christians aren’t the problem. The problem is that man has been using religion (of all stripes) to attempt to control others. We try to live according to the principle that Jesus preached, the golden rule, do unto others as you would others do unto you. Indeed, the group that is causing issues like in Kentucky is not following that rule.
As Lenny Bruce said, “every day more and more people are returning to God and leaving the Church”. These charlatans are not doing any favors to Jesus. They are reducing the influence that the Church has enjoyed for centuries. It may be time to tax the churches. Thank God.
John thanks for being willing to put a name to your opinions. I salute you for that.
As for your letter I agree with your numbers 2 and 3. Jesus’ teaching, “Why do you pick at the speck in your brother’s eye and ignore the log in your own eye”, applies.
However some thoughts about your comments in 2E.
1) Punish the sin, not the sinner (This isn’t in the Bible, it’s a phrase used by Christians to express that sin is bad but we’re all sinners. So calling sin, sin without condemning the sinner is the idea.)
2) Let he who is without sin cast the first stone (This was said by Jesus to the men who had drug a woman out into public for committing adultery. John Chapter 8. His purpose in saying it was to demonstrate that God first desires mercy not condemnation. He also told the woman after her accusers had left, “to go and sin no more.” The point is that God is serious about unrepentant sin, but he is also merciful to those that do repent)
3) Judge not, lest ye be judged. (again there is quite a bit of difference between condemning judgement and discernment judgement) What Jesus was saying here wasn’t to not be discerning about sin in this world and its consequences, rather he was reminding sinful mankind not to condemn others, for we all have done sin that’s worthy of God’s condemnation. Only God gets to condemn.
4) Love your neighbor as you would love yourself. (This was part of the Great commandment Jesus taught. (“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22) I’m not sure how warning someone about sin isn’t loving, it maybe the height of love, but one should never do it in a spirit of self-righteousness.
Lastly, 4) Not everyone believes in your God. Please don’t let this upset you. If he/she/it is real, we are ultimately forgiven. Says so in “your book”.
(I personally take no offense at another’s unbelief in the Christian God, so I understand your sentiment about those that might.
But what it actually says in the Bible about forgiveness is telling (19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. Romans 3
Our welcome sign at Sierra Community Church may help clear up some of the misconceptions of what faith in Christ looks like.
Sierra Community Church Welcome sign
Behind these doors you will discover people who struggle with lying, cheating, envy, greed, sexual impurity, gossiping, back-biting, bickering, anger, swaggering, bullying, cruelness, arrogance, meanness, stupidity, impatience, hate, judgment, pride and even more. We’ve compiled this long and sorry record as sinners and proved that we are utterly incapable of living the glorious lives God wills for us.
We know we need Christ.
If you’ve discovered that you are like us, broken with contrite hearts, desiring forgiveness from sin, people longing for a clean start, then
Please Come In.
For here, you will find rest for your weary souls and peace with God. And not only for us but for everyone who believes in the work of Jesus. We discovered out of sheer generosity God put us in right standing with Himself. A pure gift. He got us out of the mess we’re in and restored us to where He always wanted us to be.
Sin is serious business that God calls us to repent from and to turn to his Son for forgiveness. But we all sin so the first marker of a Christian should be humility and a tremendous hope in what God has done for us in Christ. But take heed God will one day judge all of humankind based either upon their own works or Christ. The latter will save you, the former will not.
dan, you salute john for ‘putting a name to opinions’ (throw a bone), and note that others (such as myself) ‘hide behind screen names’, but continue to insulate and camouflage yourself behind the ‘belief’ shell game weapon.
I always find it fascinating to read letters of intolerance from the intolerant.
What a crock-
(I personally take no offense at another’s unbelief in the Christian God, so I understand your sentiment about those that might.
Dan, you do however believe that anyone who does not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior will ultimately burn in the fires of Hell. I consider your bloviating to be snake oil sales to the rubes.
Tax the churches-maybe in Dan’s case by the volume of BS
http://www.rightwingwatch.org
“…wave the flag, wave the bible, wave your sex or your business degree. Whatever you want, just don’t wave that thing at me…”
All you non-believers are going to go straight to he**.
I said that for a little humor to break up the intensity of the discussion.
I didn’t see Dan say anything about anyone burning in the flames of hell.
But why do those of you who posted about Dan even care what he thinks? He causes no harm to you, and you apparently don’t believe God can either, so why the anger?
Thank you, John Spinola. Very well written article. This “religious freedom” movement strikes me as a clear case of religious terrorism. The violence of it is more subtle than, say, igniting bombs or hijacking an airplane but it is dangerous nonetheless. The Kim Davis’ of our country are using their (interpretation of) religious ideology as justification for denying others their civil rights. In Islamic countries, this is called sharia law. In the United States it is the latest form of bullying perpetrated by self-proclaimed “Christians”. I seriously doubt that the Kim Davis types of our country would stand up as loudly for the “religious freedoms” of non-Christian people to exercise the same authority. Imagine the outcry if one of these “Christians” went to a gun shop to try to purchase a firearm and the Quaker clerk refused to sell them one. Or, imagine trying to register your vehicle at the DMV but the Amish clerk refused to register your “evil machine”. How about your Jewish letter carrier refusing to deliver you your Christmas cards. Or the Muslim clerk at the grocery store who refuses to ring up your ham. All of these “non-Christians” could cite the same justification (“religious freedom”) and be just as much in the “right” as Ms. Davis claims to be. This is exactly why we have separation of church and state, a principle which our founding fathers held so dear. Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. We, as a people, are free to worship whatever we please and live our own lives according to whatever principles we hold dear. Nobody is stopping anyone from doing so. We are also free to quit any job that we feel requires us to violate our beliefs or ethics. When we have a situation where people are trying to exercise their own beliefs by denying other people their rights and privileges, we have our own ugly version of sharia law and terrorism. Is this honestly what we, as a people, are willing to accept for our country?
I was gonna say everything that Janice said, but she beat me to it!
Y’all are entitled to believe whatever mythology you choose to, but denying others their legal rights or defaming those that do not believe as you is just wrong.
Love how people these days degragate the terrorist word by comparing it to peoples thoughts. A terrorist is a physical violent person. Much like people like to compare people actions or thoughts to Hitler. Its all crazy over reach meant to scare people.
Thank you, Reloman, for pointing that out. Yes, instead of using the term “terrorism” I should have used either the term, “extremism” or “fanaticism”. Extremism or fanaticism forms the basis for terrorism (and for the creation of people like Adolf Hitler) but they are not one and the same. I stand corrected on my choice of terminology.
Not quite on topic, but close enough, anyone interested in going to the source should read “Paul and Jesus” by James D. Tabor. Tabor, the chair of the department of religious studies at The University of North Carolina at Charlotte (not exactly a liberal hotbed) takes as his theme the historical fact that what we know as Christianity was largely the invention of Paul of Tarsus and pretty much defined the mysticism that Jesus never taught, but prevails today. There are many other scholarly works with the same theme – “The Mythmaker” by Talmudic scholar Hyam Maccoby being another that I’d recommend.
Imagine what the world would be like if today’s Christianity was based on, for instance, The Sermon on the Mount and other examples of Jesus’ teachings, instead of the pagan mysticism of “The Son of God,” bread and wine transformed into body and blood, and “resurrection” that were the inventions of Paul and his followers.
“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
–John Adams
This from Thomas Jefferson in an April 11, 1823, letter to John Adams:
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. … But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding….
Children aren’t considered responsible enough to drive a car until they are 16, but we’ll attempt to define their world view shortly after birth. Not a great idea. And zero barrier to entry. So you want to leave the book club… not so fast, we poured magic water on your head and that means you might be tortured forever after you die.
To all of you who think the people who don’t join book clubs are ‘angry’ or intolerant when they tell you to go away: Have you ever been lectured by a militant vegan? Say what you want about vegans, but they won’t refuse you a marriage license because you eat meat. You know who would though… ovo-lacto-vegetarians, ugh they are the worst.
“Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.” – Jesus
Billy the mountain, good analogy about the lacto ovo vegetarian. I remember when I was in high school, back in the 70’s and it was the trend to become vegetarian but so hard to give up stuff like butter and ice cream, eggs and cheese, so compromise was the solution. I have very devoted vegan family members who are role models for life style choices that take the decipline to walk their talk. Sorry, this has nothing to do with the topic, i just liked your analogy.
She has a right to her religious beliefs but she doesn’t have a God given right to be a county clerk. Do that “render unto Caesar” thing, that’s also in your bible
yup billy
I wish there was a like button for the original post. All the religious bantering bored me. Funny how the scripture being quoted by a christian is meant one way and interpreted another. So i guess its ok to sin as long as your have accepted jesus. This coming from the same people who would turn there backs on jesus today. Does anyone else kind it kinda queer that jesus was 35, never married and only hung out with men and prosititutes? Some many consider that gay by todays standards.
@Chief….any moral decadent behavior being practiced by Christians? Personally, I think your Christian focus is rife with hatred.
What if we elected a president that, after the election, said he was a religious conscientious objector and even though we were under attack, couldn’t allow the U.S. to respond? Do you think the same supporters of Kim Davis would support him?