Editorial: Stop the name calling or the comment section on Lake Tahoe News will go away
The world seems to be in a sad, angry and distrustful state of mind.
We live in a time when in 2012 more active U.S. troops took their lives than died fighting in Afghanistan, according to the Military Suicide Report.
In 2012, 70 journalists died. The record was 74 in 2009. That might not sound like much, but there was a time when journalists’ notebooks were like a white flag of neutrality. Not so anymore. These unarmed chroniclers of truth are seen as having an even more dangerous weapon than a gun – that of a pen, a computer, a microphone, a cell phone.
While journalists have long been held in low-esteem right along with attorneys, the fourth estate has also had a special status of being a non-combatant. Not so much anymore.
We are hurting each other with weapons and words.
People say they hate all the negative news. We say there is no such thing as negative or positive news – there is just news.
However, Lake Tahoe News knows we are bringing a good deal of negativity to you via the comments.
Without counting the positive, negative and neutral comments on Lake Tahoe News, we know the negative run rampant and overshadow and the other comments. The negativity isn’t what is so grating and unnerving, it’s the anger and venom that are spewed that are both disheartening and alarming.
No one is going to agree with everyone all of the time. But that doesn’t make the other person’s opinion less valid. Nor does it make that person an idiot or some other name for having that opinion.
Sure, it’s easy to tell someone to not read the comments if they don’t like what is being said. But isn’t that in some way punishing the people who want to contribute in a meaningful way and rewarding the nasty commenters?
Lake Tahoe News, and any site for that matter, does not have to allow comments. We’ve done a lot of thinking about whether comments are good or bad for the news site. For now, the good outweighs the bad. We like when conversations are elevated, new information is brought forward and divergent opinions are presented in a thoughtful manner.
But as we go forward with a redesign of the news site, we are giving serious thought to not allowing comments in the future. It will be up to the commenters – basically how you behave between now and when we pull the trigger on the redesign – as to whether comments will be a component in the next incarnation.
The turning of a calendar for many is all about resolutions. For Lake Tahoe News we would like to not be able to write the first sentence of this editorial a year from now. We’ll do our part to make that possible, if you will do yours.
Is it that hard to do unto others as you would want done to you? Is it that hard to voice your opinion about a topic without being critical of someone else? Why can’t you just write: I disagree with Lake Tahoe News because … and then leave it at that.
Happy New Year from everyone at Lake Tahoe News!
Thank you for advancing civility in discourse. You are not advocating any censoring of ideas but are rightly focused on the form.
I have read venomous comments only to dismiss the commentator.
Happy New Year Kae and thank you for the difference you are making
I hope you keep the comment section of the site. It is good to see the discussion. I will also mention that sometime people just post comments with extreme views to get rises out of level headed commentators. I can name a few people that if I see their name in the comment threads I have made it a habit to just skip over their words. Some people just don’t have anything nice to contribute and just want to stir. Again please keep the comment forums.
Keep the comments! Shows what the community is thinking, good and bad. Agree with John S. if I see a poster’s name that is frequently negative, I skip over. Not sure about the new format though if that’s what is loading in occasionally now. hard to read.
First of all, all too many journalists put themselves directly in harms way then wonder why they are injured or killed. Secondly many countries such as Mexico and Russia are semi-criminal enterprises who routinely murder investigative journalists and others who get in their way. Unfortunately this is publicized lightly which is the 4th estates failing. Maybe some of you remember the murder of a journalist in Arizona about 2 or 3 decades ago where the journalistic establishment went on the warpath against organized crime.
Another major bone of contention is journalists are all too often politicalized in their writings, going far beyond reporting and inserting their own feelings, glaringly so.
Also sometimes the bantering among letter writers adds to the fun and makes it more interesting.
Kae, this is your publication and you set the rules, so be it.
Thank you for an even-handed and thought provoking editorial. You are so correct that the unkindness of anger, venom, and personal attacks does not elevate the exchange of ideas. When posting on this site in the future I will make the conscious effort to not judge, react and then criticize the individual making a post on which I disagree but rather to state my opinion as just that and not as fact to which everyone else should agree.
Thank you Kae for the much needed reminder that civility needs to reappear in our world, beginning with each one of us.
Have a happy, healthy, and prosperous 2013.
I too have been troubled by the tone of some who comment. Is there a middle ground before eliminating comments? Readers know not to use foul language because you do not tolerate it. Suppose the same rule applied re name-calling. Another option is permanently banning individuals who cannot obey the rules.
I agree with Joe Doaks’ comment that this is your publication. Those of us lucky enough to read it need to go by your rules.
Lost the Tahoe Daily Tribune comment section around 2 years or so ago. What an interesting aspect modern technology has interjected into news reporting by having a comments section. You are right, the comments section comes with a responsibility to act in a more civil manner, something that we should try to do in our everyday existence.
Well said, Kae! Happy New Year.
Amen Kae!Like some who have already posted I too see the usual culprits and just skip over them becuase they have lost all integrity with their negative rants. The power of the send button and human impulse are a bad combination. Here is a suggestion for those who feel compelled to post negative and unproductive comments…THINK before you speak/write.
T – Is it TRUE?
H – Is it HELPFUL?
I – Is it INSPIRING?
N – Is it NECESSARY?
K – Is it KIND?
Sometimes pausing when agitated and re-reading your post before hitting the send button will result in the DELETE button instead.
Happy New Year to all!
Peace, Lauren
I love LTN. The ability to read other’s comments gives opportunity for more info or other aspects. I dismiss the people who make derogatory or negative comments, and it isn’t difficult to pick those people out and remember who they are. You shouldn’t have to censor or determine who is being abusive, but bullying needs to be recognized as just that. I hope you continue to allow comments, as they heighten the level of any story, and provide a wonderful avenue for people to share more insight and information on any topic.
I read more comments then I do the full articals. If there would be no comments then there would be no reason to read this publication every day.
Kae, can you block the “name callers” by blocking their email address?
Thank you Kae,
We can agree to disagree but lets do so in a civil manner. No name calling, no insults and no ridiculing others for their beliefs.
I’m an old liberal lefty and I find others of a different persuasion a bit thin skinned. I hold my tounge and try to make a measured response without resorting to cussing and flying off the handle when presented by someone with a different point of view than mine.
We have 3 things to be thankful for on this New Years Day.# 1. The world did’nt come to an end on 12/21/12. I know that disapointed some, but I for one am glad we’re still here. #2.We survived SnowGlobe. Huge improvement from last year. #.3 Kae has given us an option, either cool it with the hatered, venom, insults and name calling or we lose the comment section entirely. I hope the people who comment here choose to play by Kae’s rules.
Thank you and have a happy 2013.
Old Long Skiis
What the internet did was give the cowards a place to hide. If a person is going to comment made it a requirement that they use their real name, no hiding behind made up names. As a person that has commented on many things, I welcome comments, support, criticism, and suggestions not the comments of those with an axe to grind that use any opportunity to express their anger. Lets talk, argue, agree and disagree, but on the relevant issues. Don’t hide behind an alias, if it’s worth saying its worth owning, use your name.
Thanks Kae.
Ted, You have said something I agree with.
It’s BAD and it’s WRONG and I know it,but honestly I read the stories from Kae for the news (because she’s great) and the commenting for amusement. It’s kinda addicting to watch these people go at it. Dosen’t affect me or my thoughts about the stories to much really, I can leave the site if it gets bad.I swore to never post because I don’t think I would feel really good when/if someone attacked me for my thoughts.I broke that a couple times(ofcourse!!).And sometimes, you really can glean more bits of information about matters here around town by someones post. It’s just wether or not it can be believed is the question.
So Kae… please don’t stop the commenting. By all means do not let people become actually abusive and bullying,but please keep the forum for the sake of it just being a darn good read (entertainment) sometimes.
Although there will always be negative comments to contend with, the positive ideas and opinions that spring forth hopefully outweigh the negative. Also of importance are the subtle desires learned from newspaper comment sections. As an example, the City of SLT should realize by now most locals want Sass to replace Claire due to his coming in third in the November election. How did Grego and another ex-council member enter the picture? If the city is truly wanting to build unity in our community, then Sass is the voters elected choice. Period. Anyone else appointed to Council will only build distrust among the local citizens. PS I don’t know anything about Sass except voters put him in third place.
I just have one thing to say ,Happy New Year everyone, Be safe.
Mr. Long (and Mr. Pierini), do you consider voting anonymously in elections akin to being a coward? Both actions, be it voting or commenting on internet threads, could be considered voicing one’s opinion, so I’m curious to see how they are different. No sarcasm or malice intended in my question, I just seem to see it differently.
Keep the comments, set up a system to remove those who don’t follow the rules: warn, suspend, ban. Don’t punish those who are capable of having a civil dialogue.
I get a lot of perspective reading the comments and hope they don’t go away!
And I am often saddened reading them: the personal attacks and name calling and sometimes frantic emotions buried in violent words. There are certain “commenters” (usually using an alias) who I always skip over.
Why don’t we all – in life AND in LTN comments – simply act with kindness and respect for ALL – even those with whom we disagree – and contribute to making this world a kinder place? !
Disagreements, differing opinions when shared with respect (and letting go of the need to be RIGHT) are educational and can often bring people to find the common beliefs that may lead to a universal WIN!
Happy new KIND year all!
.
Ted Long,
I chose a made up name because I received some disturbing phone calls when using my real name. My name number and home address are in the phone book.
I don’t know what I wrote in LTN that angered this guy so much. He wouldn’t identify himself and to be honest it kinda creeped me out. So hence the pseudonym. I’m not hiding, just playin’ it safe. Take Care, Old Long Skiis
Thank you, Kae, for this your articulate article. I agree with many of the sentiments of my fellow posters. I like the exchange of viewpoints offered by the comments section but am disturbed by the name calling that I too often see. On Facebook and many other forums there are buttons the reader can push that indicate when a post is (in their opinion) offensive or abusive. I don’t know if that is an option in this forum. Regardless I do think that those who engage in name-calling should be warned and then banned from this forum if their abusive behavior continues. We can all agree to disagree and still get along. Happy New Year everyone. Let’s treat each other with dignity, respect, and love.
This issue is as old as the internet, where it’s all too easy to feel like a big shot journalist yourself, and for some odd reason, too easy to say things permanently, that one will, or should, regret.
This was a nice reminder of something all should be aware of, but I think LTN runs the risk of losing much interest, and readership, if they simply dump the entire feature, as has been threatened here.
There are many middle ground approaches that I hope they will pursue. I hope their web designer won’t charge them excessively for such features. Alternatives include: 1) Go ahead and censor and delete as you wish. Removing the feature altogether is to censor all of the good along with the bad. If censoring at all, might as well try to be selective. Now, this does imply another cost, which is to have someone read all such comments, and judge each one. So 2) Add buttons to let your readership flag you on a comment that they find offensive and then judge for yourself. 3) My favorite feature I’ve seen elsewhere are little flags for each comment where readers can vote “thumbs up” or “thumbs down”, and if the vote is negative enough, it is automatically hidden, unless the reader wants to show it intentionally, to see what an idiotic statement looks like, or whatever. This protects sensitive readers, and of most value, it lets the whole community easily give the commentator feedback on the value of his/her post, which should have a long term educational/corrective effect.
There may be other approaches, but I hope you see that removing the comments altogether will have the most negative impact, and that there are alternatives which can greatly enhance its value instead, cost permitting (Please don’t let your web designer gouge you for this. Shouldn’t be that costly).
Good luck with this, best wishes, & Happy New Year Everyone!
“Positive” enough? ;)
– Doug
Happy New Year!
The comments sections of your online New Publication are the reason I keep coming here.
Public comment and discussion are the future of news media.
I like to read different points of view. I do not like the direct attacks at a personal level when someone articulates a point of view different than some one else’s.
Some like to shout down an opposing opinion to an issue.
Stopping comments would be a win for those who only want their agenda and point of view to be heard.
The North Lake Tahoe Bonanza shut down the member section and comments. How did that work out for them?
DougM,
Very well said. I too believe that by eliminating the comment section would greatly decrease readership for LTN.
As you proposed a middle ground tact may be a better solution.
I am sure this will all work out.
Take Care, Old Long Skiis,(fake name or made up campfire name).
I like Doug’s idea too, maybe some research into how this works for other publications? and it takes the burden off of LTN as the sole punisher.
This is only a guess:
I would think it’s a horrible burden to spend time monitoring comments to make sure everyone is behaving. I have heard that readership at the Tribune site is mostly out of town…is that the same for LTN? If that’s the case, a large majority of readers aren’t going to be interested in comments, they just want the news and events.
Hope everyone has a fabulous 2013!
Ernie Claudio, respectfully, I have a question.
You would like to see name callers blocked, but what about the negative way you oppose businesses like B of A? What if B of A prohibited you from setting foot on their property? Would it seem unfair simply because of the way you voice your opinion?
You feel that you have the right to voice your opinion in a negative way, but condemn others. While I agree with Kay’s statements, I also have to take issue with the hypocracy. You are a member of Anonymous
Tahoe, and that means you have made the choice to openly speak your mind. Name calling is rude and perhaps counter productive, but it does seem to offer a discussion in some respects nonetheless. What ever happened to Free Speech? What happened to tolerance? How we react to such negativity weighs far more on our personal character than the person who took the easy way out by acting like a school yard bully. What I mean is, a great comeback to such negativity would be to speak to them with a valid, well thought, well informed response.
Just my two cents and I meant no disrespect whatsoever.
Just a few additional thoughts in response to the anonymity question: I like to remain unknown because I occasionally get upset and say something that I might regret later. Unfortunately, there is no edit function here. Like most people, I don’t want to take responsibility for my mistakes. Anonymity allows for this. New Year resolution: try to be more civil and tolerant, again.
Thank you for finally bringing the online bullying to light! We are all adults, we all have our own opinions, and we all are entitled to those opinions. It’s like my mother always said to me, “If you can’t say something nice, don’t say it at all!”
I agree that people’s real names should be attached to their comments. That way they might be less likely to say something that they might regret later.
Thank you Kae, for all your hard work that goes into get us the news, whether we like it or night!
I thought journalists had thicker skin. I thought editors were tough as nails. This editorial is reaching too far in the direction of our wimpy, sensitive, and sugar-coated feelings society. We need you to be tougher Kae, and our community needs to read different opinions. You and your readers need to embrace and tolerate criticism and even a smattering of vile remarks once in a while, if you want to make it in the world of journalism and maintain readership. To threaten to remove a very important aspect of your webpage due to trolling is laughable. Put your big girl pants on and saddle up. Life is a bumpy ride, and everyone needs to remember that. If you can not handle rude people, you are most definitely in the wrong profession. I hear sesame street is hiring for the part of Elmo.
To toughen up- a writer always has to consider their audience, and if the majority of people don’t like to witness people being mean to each other, while a few do, well you have to go with the majority.
I often lose interest in an article completely once people get off the track of just stating what they are thinking, and start attacking others and their ideas.
Since a major point of this editorial was to help promote civility and respect for other’s opinions I could use some clarification on whether toughen up’s comments were intended to be a joke or if they were serious.
To “Careaboutthecommunity”- I agree about wanting comments to be on topic. The comments earlier in this chain by “Bob” belonged with an article from a few days ago about the challenge facing the city council to appoint a new member. While it was civil it was not appropriate for this discussion.
Let’s keep them on track and state facts, opinions but not insults.
Yeah, go ahead and delete the coment section. It is the only interesting aspect of your endeavors.
I’m quite certain the anonymous blogging aspect of this good addition to our community, LTN, does increase the site’s viewership. And I also know more information comes out when people can post anonymously! But granted, a lot of garbage is also spewed out.
And I’m sure the publisher would rather be spending time investigating, writing and reporting, rather than policing this site.
But don’t know what’s so hard for people to learn to in essence comment, “I respectfully disagree with what you posted.”? Something many have done with yours truly. Rather than engaging in name calling, or other put down comments, as ways to counter another’s argument?
It was a joke, but really, comments are crucial.
To threaten her readers into conforming to a muzzled keyboard is a weak attempt to induce censorship. You have created a community voice here at LTN, to remove diversified opinion, as vile as some may be, is the wrong move. Toughen up, don’t wear your heart on your sleeve. The more voices, the further it carries. Keep the comments or risk losing readership. I think journalism needs to get wimpier. Don’t you agree USMC-4-ever?
I love the comments, and I don’t Kae is stating every one must agree all the time, just disagree respectfully. I like Lauren’s “THINK” acronym; we all can benefit from a little thought before speaking — or hitting “post”.
My interpretation of her editorial was not that Kae was advocating censorship but rather that she was encouraging civility.
I’m for it. However, people who, knowingly or otherwise; spread misinformation, lie through omission, misrepresent others, and discuss matters of fact without any substance need to be addressed. Those people need to be taken down a peg. It is not ‘name calling’ to call a person who has definitively demonstrated ignorance, ignorant. That is being accurate, no different than calling a brown banana rotten.
This is the internet. There are trolls, liars, salesmen, disinformation propagandists, politicians, agendas, bigots, and people who can barely form rational thoughts trying to be heard. Be prepared. Anyone who won’t or can’t back up what they say and cite sources shouldn’t expect people to be polite.
The people who are involved in spreading information, enlightening others and communicating are using this technology for the good of all people. We don’t have time for contrarian sophistry and when you waste our time by not supporting your thoughts with any substance it is insulting and disrespectful.
For example. Can I call a psychic a liar using the internet to sell their services and a fraud? That is precisely what they do.
Welcome to the internet.
Thing Fish- 2 wrongs don’t make a right, hold your standards up, even when others stoop with theirs, just be factual, put the counter information up for us, give us credit, we can weed through mistruths, but if it becomes attacking, we look away, or discredit the info.
Information should be able to stand on it’s own, not shoved down your throat, that is a big red flag.
I want the information from all sides, in a civil discussion. I am willing to let everyone have a voice, even if I don’t believe in what they say, and if I feel strong enough about it, I will track down some facts to counter it, and post it.
I have been a professional author/ journalist for 50* years. To earn my living writing, I’ve had to develop credentials, gain a rep for accuracy and take responsibility for my work.
But re my writing the past few years, I have been insulted, called a liar and worse by annoymous, angry people with zero credentials and no responsibilities for accuracy or accountability. Yet they get to address the same audience.
It doesn’t seem fair and it sure isn’t fun to see some clown inaccurately, angrily, insusltingly rip into my work.
Many publications reserve the right to not print nasty, ugly, defamatory scribblings from the public, just as they control their editorial content.
Commentary doesn’t have to be all or nothing. Just put the few well-known abusers of LTN publication privilege on notice, Kae, that they can shape up or be denied publication in your fine paper.
Bob Wood
Given Mr. Bob Woods well expressed thoughts based on his long professional experience and other posters ideas about adding a feature that allows readers to crowd censor the offensive comments, a solution presents itself. I like this from Doug M:
“My favorite feature I’ve seen elsewhere are little flags for each comment where readers can vote “thumbs up” or “thumbs down”, and if the vote is negative enough, it is automatically hidden, unless the reader wants to show it intentionally, to see what an idiotic statement looks like, or whatever. This protects sensitive readers, and of most value, it lets the whole community easily give the commentator feedback on the value of his/her post, which should have a long term educational/corrective effect.”
Add that up and I think you have a workable combination that serves everyones needs.
That pendelum swings both ways however and when an author makes a statement that is less than factual, biased or insulting to a particular group or person, the same standard should apply.
If that happens, I can shed my cape and mask and go back to using my real name after being banished for calling “foul” on an authors’ unflattering characterzation of a lare group of people.
Words matter,,,especially when you make your living using them.
Choose wiiiiisely…………………Z
I think using a pseudonymn is helpful in this time of unknown unstable people. One of the good things about living in a small town is knowing your neighbors, one of the bad things about knowing your neighbors in a small town is risking tnat they may not like your opinions, and some of them might hate you for your opinions on your bumper sticker. These are valid concerns. Good luck and remember that if you wouldn’t say it to someone’s face, then dont write it in an email. NINA
As the only local online news source (besides moonshine Ink) that has reader comments, I really appreciate the fact that LTNs still allows the community to voice their opinions on current events and issues in the community. Look at what happened when the Tribune-Sierra Sun-Bonanza called it quits on their online comments and tried to use facebook instead; NO ONE COMMENTS ON ANYTHING on their Facebook pages! Maybe this is because on Facebook ones identity is no longer “hidden”.
But, I agree that some individuals do get out-of-control and use name-calling and poor-judgement when making comments on LTNs.
Maybe, Kae could sent a feature where comments have to be reviewed before public posting, but that would mean more staff hours to accomplish this in a timely manner.
Either way, I hope that Kae keeps this service to the community intact. Maybe setting up some commenting safe-guards if there is such a thing…
More better with name up front ! Thanx
I know the anonymity gives people a bit more courage to say things they might not otherwise say. This should not mean one can say just about anything without considering other’s feelings. Use your brain, use your nice words and, if you disagree with another point of view, state your position politely.
I, too, enjoy reading the comments and I tend to skip over the known name-callers and rude commenters.
Keep up the good work, Kae. I look to LTN for up to the minute news of Tahoe.
I’d love to see the comments turned off. Please! Turn this into a news site instead of a gossip column and attack site. The more nonsense is posted in comments, the less I am inclined to visit the site. Do a competent job of reporting the news and there isn’t a need for all of the chiming in. Do a poor job of reporting, and the daggers come out.
I can’t see that the comments contribute anything to the news reports and am always amazed how many people in this town think anyone else cares about the opinions they proffer. If what you have to say is so important – start your own website. Let this website focus on the news issues central to living in the basin.
Please, please, please, have some guts and make this the last comment on this site!
It worries me that people seem to be more concerned about ‘name calling’ and harsh confrontation. And less concerned about people who consistently spread lies, half truths, misinformation and have no interest in discussions that involve logic and fact.
And to the person who talks about credentials and reputation. I agree, except in this case it isn’t possible. You can’t search for posts by user name. If you could, you would be able to analyze the account and have some kind of legacy (or lack of) to judge them by. And then you run into people who post under multiple names (looking at you, Tyler).
It’s the internet, you can’t stop those shenanigans. You aren’t going to get discussion that are anywhere near the standards of Oxford style debates. If at the end of the day the nasty people and liars get called out and the good people don’t stand for their nonsense and back up what they say with substance, it is a net gain of zero, and about as good you are going to get on the internet.
Don’t shut down the comments, it would be bad for this town. Where else can representatives of private companies and public agencies confront the people who spread lies and perpetuate rumors? Those people operate safely in the real world, the stuff I have over heard getting coffee or waiting at the DMV is crazy. But here on the internet, those rumors will be confronted and thousands of locals can read about it.
And what about direct responses to Letters to the Editor? Unfortunately, a lot of those letters get published on the Trib and its sister papers, and we have to wait a week and hope that someone takes the time to write something and submit it. And hope that people who were mislead by the first letter will read the rebuttal, if one is ever published. Good information and a substantive discourse is good for our society and the old model of publishing is not as effective as what we have now.
A very fine editorial, Kae. I, along with others, hope you can keep the comments running, but if people don’t behave, insist on bashing each other, just stop including the comments.
As I, as someone who has not been perfect in the tone of my own commentary can see, some people are learning and can see the way commentary should be posted! Unfortunately, but maybe this will change, not all are!
‘Unfortunately, but maybe this will change, not all are!’
I am sorry but the tense and subject of this sentence are unclear to me.
Perhaps I am severely confused, but I am having trouble making any sense of that comment.
Maybe that will change, but not all are?
Is it further to Oregon….
or by bus?
Z
I remember when the Trib used to allow comments. Anybody else?
Because it was a ‘mainstream’ newspaper, it seemed like the logical place to vent frustrations about “the powers that be”. The paper seemed biased – an understatement at best. By pointing out the obvious, there was risk involved.
In a small town everyone knows everyone or has heard of everyone. If one wanted to write a positive comment about the new DIY store they risked inviting the animosity of owners of other stores. If one wanted to write a negative comment about the local hospital, they felt they risked job loss or even possible lack of health care as a result. There were definite pros and cons to putting your John Hancock on a comment at the Trib.
But rather than let the people decide whether they wanted comments or not (anybody remember the survey when they actually asked?) they whisked it away regardless of what the survey said.
If this publication takes a similar avenue, it won’t stop the negativity. It will just force it underground. But maybe like the Trib, that is what LTN would prefer? Is LTN just giving fair warning of what’s to come?
What’s the matter with negativity, anyway? Is the desire for change in this case due to moral proclivities, or dollar$ and cent$?
Ongoing small town issues are like lava. Boiling, churning underground. They don’t ever go away until they find their way to the surface. And they will always … always … find a way.
People like to feel they have a voice in their community and yes even while being cloaked. Personally I’m not offended by the underbelly of the beast that lies at the base of Lake Tahoe. That beast is all of us. We are IT.