Opinion: CTC crosses the line with taking of property
Note: The following letter was read into the record at the June 20 California Tahoe Conservancy meeting by Lake Tahoe News Publisher Kathryn Reed.
Thank you for allowing me to speak today.
I am Kae Reed and I am a homeowner in South Lake Tahoe who lives next to a Conservancy lot.
Susan Wood and I have owned this house since April 2003. In that time the Conservancy has mostly been a good neighbor; removing trees as necessary. In turn, we pick up errant trash and dog poop left by others on the side of the property that might actually be in the city’s right-of-way.
I may not get through all of this in my allotted time, so I will leave a copy, or feel free to read it in full on Lake Tahoe News [today].
CTC has literally staked a claim to what homeowners thought was their property for the last 10 years. Photo/LTN
What brings me to the podium is an encounter I had with two of your staff members on Tuesday. One was Jeff Miller, associate environmental planner, and the other guy’s name I don’t remember; definitely a subordinate to Miller.
After my encounter with them, a headline for a column flitted through my head – it was “Conservancy in the business of taking private property.” It might still be something like that.
I went out front when I saw them standing around like most government workers, just staring and not doing anything. Reminded me of Caltrans. But I digress.
They said someone else at the Conservancy had been by and asked them to come by. They asked where I thought the property line was. I told them it was one of two markers in the front – that depending on who from the Conservancy came out I was told something different. They said I was all wrong and that in fact the property line was much closer to my house. They said they were going to revegetate the land that we had disturbed.
I said not so fast. Prove it. They came back with a measuring device and metal detector. As they were doing their thing, I was leaving messages for CTC Deputy Director Ray Lacey and the city’s board rep Tom Davis.
The worker bees had me come out and see the metal marker in the middle of the Conservancy lot and how 60 feet toward my property would be our shared property line.
They could not find the property marker dividing our lots. They said they did. But the metal detector did not ping while I was there. They said someone would be back to dig it out. They had already left a sizeable hole and literally put a stake in the ground to claim that as CTC property.
From the hole to the closest previous marker that CTC staff has said was the property line is 5 feet. Yes five. If you go back the 100-plus feet of how deep the parcel is, that would have the CTC taking more than 500-square-feet of land. Considering our house is only 1,150-square-feet, if this were a structure they were commandeering, it would be just less than half of our living quarters.
What made this experience even more unpleasant is that I was told I had until that afternoon of June 18 to move what was allegedly on CTC property. What is on there are rounds of wood and a wheelbarrow. Wood is our primary heat source and I split most of it by hand. The disturbed land is some wood shards and sawdust from when the chain saw comes out.
I was able to talk to Ray Lacey that day. He said he was going to have an independent assessor figure out where the lot lines are. While this is great, it does seem like an incredible waste of taxpayer money.
I wonder if I didn’t have Lacey’s number, know who he is or that if he didn’t call back, that I could call his boss, Patrick Wright, if the CTC would have just taken my property this week. People who have the “right” names and numbers should not get special treatment. And the government should not screw people who don’t have connections.
Tom Davis also swung by to see the situation. He seemed a bit surprised by the lot line assessment of the CTC, but I’ll let him speak for himself.
Even if the measurement comes back that the CTC dudes were correct, the lack of due process and the manner in which the CTC goes about taking private property is horrendous. Jeff Miller said he had been by before but no one was home. He never left a card, no letter was sent, no phone call made, no appointments made. It wasn’t like I was playing hard to reach.
At least the U.S. Forest Service when it has an encroachment issue with a neighbor sends letters before they drive a stake in the ground.
Miller could have made this a teachable moment. He could have said why cutting wood there was a bad thing.
Instead he said his colleagues would be out to plant more of the thorny wild roses that have overtaken most of that lot. When Davis saw the parcel he said he thought the lot needed cleaning up. I laughed and said staff thought more needed to be planted.
Two weeks ago we had a defensible space inspection. The South Lake Tahoe fire captain said those wild roses were way too close to our fence. Now I’m not sure if I should remove them or not – I don’t know who owns what and if I would be destroying government property.
I do know planting more vegetation closer to my house, as the CTC wants to do, would go against the definition of defensible space.
Assuming the property lines are redrawn to what the CTC guys said were true earlier this week, why the change now after we’ve been here 10 years?
I can’t wait to find out what happens to the shed that we use for wood storage. It was there when we moved in. A few inches of it may be creeping onto CTC territory.
All I was left with was a sour taste and having the same question I have of TRPA – why does either one of your agencies exist and what good do you really do? Shame on you CTC for allowing this to happen.
Maybe it’s time for South Lake Tahoe, El Dorado County and Placer County to manage the urban lots in their jurisdictions – and to even own them. Get the state out of back yards and side yards. Less government would be a welcome change in all our lives.
Thank you for your time.
Kae, part of the problem is that an accurate map of property lines and parcels, which is the responsibility of the county assessor, doesn’t always exist in a format that is easily accessible. If at all. All they have is some marker left by some survey crew, that was likely put there long before they could use GPSs, which would include the year 2003. I am sure there is some survey file, that is on paper somewhere. It probably isn’t digitized. So their inability to give you an answer right away is not out of line.
They are going to have to spend the time and money to find their and your property line. And if you are wrong, well you are actually the one who cost the tax payers a bunch of money. It probably would have been cheaper for them to pay a crew to move your stuff and call it even. On that same note, they could have just been cool with it.
About 20 years ago we learned the hard way about how poorly documented El Dorado County’s property lines are surveyed and documented. My husband knows how to shoot a line, so we had done so before we built. But then years later, a new next-door neighbor disputed the fence, got nasty, and we had to spend a lot of money to have it professionally done. They lost. But back in the 60’s and 70’s there was a lot of shoddy survey work done in this county, and people are paying the price still today. My advice? Always get a professional survey done before you buy. That way you don’t have to listen to agency mini-tyrants when they try to trample you.
Process was indeed poor, but if the CTC owns the property in question, how is it they are “taking private property” as you have stated?
It’s up to each property owner to conduct their own due diligence on accurate parcel lines. It’s surprising that CTC allows so many private property owners to encroach on CTC land , which is public land. Many property owners do this same thing (ask a realtor) and hope CTC doesn’t notice. But, the lot line is the lot line, if you wrongly assumed the line was farther away from your home than it is, then you got the benefit for 10 years of using public land that didn’t belong to you.
Taxpayer money was spent to purchase those lots to keep them open and public, not for private property owners to use. It doesn’t make a difference what you used it for, its public land. Why should taxpayer dollars be spent buying up residential lots for ‘open space’ if it’s only so that adjacent owners think they get personal use of public land. People next to CTC and USFS lots get the benefit of the open space, not additional private property. CTC finally taking back public property is the right thing.
Sounds like the CTC could have been more polite but lot lines are a touchy business. Assuming where a lot line is can be dangerous as you are finding out. Be aware that even though you have used that portion of the disputed lot for years, the CTC has no obligation to recognize prescriptive easements. They are exempt from prescriptive easements which could give you legal rights to the disputed area, so there is no traction there.
Unless the person telling you where your lot line is has just shot that line in and is a surveyor then location is just an opinion.
I to own a lot next to the CTC. The City of SLT decided to trade the old Drive In property to the CTC for the lot next to the tribune?!?! They did this for the Harrison Avenue Project which will likely never happen. Although most of the people I have dealt with were friendly. They have little or no respect for their neighbors. They did a large reveg project and took most of the coverage from the parcel. My understanding was that coverage was used by the city to build the Ice Arena but they still banked it anyway. While digging through the property we found that some of that coverage was on my property. When I asked that TRPA come out and verify my coverage they stated. “We are allowed to determine the footage on our own, we don’t need the TRPA, you as a private property owner need to fill out an application and go through the process which could take many months”. Why in the world would the rues be different for me. The rules should be the same for all! Now the lot next to me will be staging for the Bijou Erosion Control Project, right in the middle of a residential neighborhood. Rules should be the same for everyone. The CTC lives by their own rules under the premise of a conservation group. I am all for conserving the sensitive lands in the area, but a great deal of what they own is not sensitive and not on the tax rolls. Get back to why you were created in the first place and stay away from buildable non sensitive parecels.
Your questioning what good do CTC and TRPA really do surprises me.
I’m grateful to all Conservancy groups (Tahoe and beyond) for setting aside parcels and swaths of land, giving us breathing room and a sense of space and preserving natural habitat for wildlife.
Sorry you got surprised but they were doing their job. If they had given you a note before showing up, it may not have blindsided you, but the outcome would still be the same.
The CTC has purchased lots that the TRPA said were unbuildable, for sez and other issues. These lots owners had only one buyer the CTC, so they sold their unbuildable lot to the CTC. Fast forward 10 years and the TRPA says the lots are buildable so the prior lot owners feel somewhat screwed buy the CTC and TRPA and they were. That’s the Gov. we have, not the country we were born in.
Prescriptive easement statues due apply if you had the easement prior to the purchase of the land buy the Gov. or anyone else.
Kay, you summed it up in two words-“Less Government”
We live off Pioneer Trail and this same situation is now happening to us. The CTC came out two days ago while I was away and placed a property stake 5 feet onto our property. The county property stake is still in the ground, under a bush, 5 feet away from the CTC stake. I have called and left messages that have not yet been returned.
My first call this morning was to our attorney. Now the CTC and ourselves will unfortunately need to possibly pay legal fees in order that we do not lose part of our property.
What is going on lately!
Boundary line disputes are common in El Dorado County. This is particularly true on the West Slope, since some of the lot lines date back to the Gold Rush era. Just because the CTC or other government entity claims that their information is correct doesn’t mean that this is the case.
As to Joby’s comments, good luck with the erosion control project! They did one in our neighborhood, and it has caused problems with our roads, drainage, runoff & even impacted the flow of underground springs/water in the area. The cure seemed to be worse than the problem, a not uncommon occurrence with government projects.
Good luck, Kae!
Oh Kae ! Isn’t it bliss, you don’t approve
Two who keeps tearing around
One who can’t move,send in the clowns
where are the clowns Oh The Jeff Miller’s
Are Here
Typical to our way of doing things these days, this kind of sloppy “authoritative” work probably goes on all the time, except that those who have the sensibility to question anything are in the minority (at least until it’s brought up), as my guess is that they have done this before in places where no one even asks or considers that they might be wrong. . .it’s cheaper that way – just plunge ahead, as most won’t say anything – then what we’ve done becomes the “record”. . .like faulty & dangerous automobile designs, it becomes merely a “cost of doing business” when proven wrong. . .in the meantime, doing it right is less of an issue, especially when you’re “overworked & underpaid” with public money.
This is what passes for good management these days. . .
I am not defending CTC action or approach. But a point of clarification. CTC (or any other land owner) exerting its rights over the land they have previously acquired is not a taking. They are merely laying claim to what is rightfully theirs. They bought it, they own it. I understand Reed’s distaste for the process, but I have to ask, if in fact the true property line is closer to her house, then she does not own the land she has treated as her own for many years. I am sure this was not intentional, but legally, “a taking” is a process whereby a government entity takes land you legally own. If Reed does not legally own the land she thought she did, the CTC is merely exerting its rights as a rightful landowner – though it seems they have done so uncivilly.
But hey I can provide you boxcar loads of cases where 2 private individuals have spent thousands of dollars battling each other over land disputes. So nothing new here.
Rick
Seems most folks are leaning toward the CTC side, while the disputed property line is still in question. If the county records on property lines are really the mess they sound like, then that’s where the county ought to be spending its money. Kae deserves an answer from them. If they decide entirely or mostly in favor of CTC, does Kae have any recourse, any action from whomever sold the property to her, for falsely representing the property lines? As for CTC overpopulating the lot with thorny roses (sounds like some of the weeds we discussed last time), don’t you know? These environmentalists love flammable vegetation right up against your house. They hope it burns down, and that you’ll leave.
Less government would be a welcome change in all our lives. !!!!!
Doug and tahoeadvocate,
After you prevail with your God-given right to freedom and liberty and manage to overthrow all these hated gubmint regalators and hippie arsonists, who do you think should decide property lines? … those with more inherited money and land… or those with more guns?
How about an independent surveyor who isn’t employed by the government.
The private landowner has every right to have a surveyor of her or his choice, at his or her expense, come out and make a determination. This is inexpensive and often times well worth the minimal expense.
Just exactly who does this independent surveyor work for…the highest bidder? Where do they get their base information to begin their work? Please, that’s nonsense.
Doug you are have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to weeds, invasive species, and native plants.
You had the opportunity to learn something last week and didn’t. 2 minute search on google.
And your attack on environmentalists is based on this imaginary group of people that only exist in your head. you sure do a great job showing them what’s up. Dougula, the new straw man beater.
The CTC needs to have the lot line shot if they are disputing it’s location and there are no survey markers.
Any questions?
Atomic: If I read this correctly, the CTC in their mind is not disputing the line. They believe they have clear evidence where the line should be and is not. These types of discrepancies are common throughout the US. People happily go along thinking they know their boundary and then poof, there neighbor (usually a new neighbor) springs on them, nope the last 20 yrs you were wrong.
I am working for one developer that recently acquired a piece of property and two neighbors had their backyard fence (view fence) about 30 ft into their property. The yards were 200 ft wide and so 30 ft was no small encroachment. The developer notified the adjacent home owners and guess what, one knew it and when they bought the house some 15 years earlier it had been disclosed on the sale, the other was completely unaware. They could have disputed the claim (and would have had to pay for the survey and fighting the developer) but accepted the evidence provided to them.
I have worked for a landowner that was bankrupted by her neighbor (a lawyer) who keep in her court for 10 years to stop her from developing a road easement. Gov was not involved just two private landowners who could not get along. Stories like this are dime a dozen.
Sadly in these disputes, if you do not accept the evidence of your neighbor (regardless if they are gov) you have to pay to have your side heard, in the end it could cost you a fortune. Kind of like some ugly divorces where the lawyers make all of the money.
Rick
Hey Rick, thanks for being clear minded on this forum, I agree with your positions. From what the story says there seems to be no actual survey corner markers. In this case I would think the CTC needs to have the line shot and corner markers in the ground to clarify a dispute that they have initiated. It may well be their land and she has encroached for years in which case it is not seizing private property as the story implies, more clarifying the line. I recently had a surveyor out to clarify this exact thing on a piece of property I own. My expense, but proper due diligence. Otherwise, if she is correct then she doesn’t have to move her wood pile! As you have said, age old private property issue. Better not to assume these things and get too bent out of shape until the markers are either found or are shot in.
Great letter Kae.
Oh and to Lou and the prescriptive easement issue I have researched this topic specifically regarding the CTC and they are exempt from this easement type. This type of easement is when open and historical use of another’s lands for a minimum of 5 years in California may allow for prescriptive easement rights for the user. The CTC is not bound by this law, which in my opinion is reasonable otherwise they would be losing land and in court too often.
The CTC is not exempt from prescrptive easements when they aquire property after the easement was established.
The CTC attorney, Ryan Davis, may give you his legal opinion, if you want one.
Thanks Lou good to know but I imagine this order of events is very rare.
Conservancy staff inspected the Conservancy lot adjacent to Kae’s property on Tuesday June 18th. I responded to her concern within an hour and we agreed to commission an independent surveyor to verify the boundaries in question. That survey will occur this summer. The Conservancy will not take further action until the property lines are verified.
The property in question was purchased because it is environmentally sensitive and must be protected accordingly. All of our 4,900 properties are inspected biannually and staff routinely thins overgrown forest and resolves potential use conflicts. – Ray Lacey, Deputy Director of the California Tahoe Conservancy
Ray,
Why don’t you tell us something new? Why don’t you explain why your staff told someone there was an issue one day and by the end of that day they were going to draw the lines how they wanted without proof? Are you going to defend your agency’s bad policies?
Been in Kae’s shoes
Hi Kae-
Just cool down a bit. The problem is quite simple, although you were apparently treated less that courteously by CTC staff. Rise above that personally.
The simple fact is, your lot has an officially surveyed and marked description in the county records. This describes what you bought. Originally there were markers placed on your corners and occasionally on mid points in your property lines. Usually the assessors parcel map is a part of your closing documents. Look at yours and see. While not a survey map, and usually so marked, it will have the distances and compass bearings indicated. This is usually sufficient to determine if there is a problem.
It is also a fact that snow removal, construction, gardening and other activities often disturb, obliterate or destroy survey markers.
Another fact that is unfortunate is that homeowners have from time to time removed the survey points, or worse, relocated them to their own advantage. I have personally seen a homeowner in my area dig up and move move a survey point so he could build a fence where he wanted it on Forest Service property.
The forest service has been involved for years in identifying trespass by homeowners onto public land, and that is exactly what is happening with the CTC.
A licensed surveyor can recover the original survey points if necessary. Of course they charge for this, and that is reasonable. Ray Lacy has indicated they will do this. This is the only resolution and the proper one.
At the end of the day, you erred in not making the seller establish exactly what you were buying. In many states, a new survey or a record of locating original property monuments is required before title can be transferred. Unfortunately California does not require this unless a new subdivision is being created.
Some calm cooperation is reasonable between the parties. You both need the answer.
Ray, I appreciate your taking the time to answer in the comments section of this opinion piece and agree with your response. Having said that, I also must agree with many of the comments critical of the CTC’s public face.
Owning and managing properties sprinkled throughout large areas of private property REQUIRES that you not only be a conservation focused entity but also a public relations entity. What Kae seemed to be asking for was proper notification – what are you going to do, when are you going to do it, how is it going to be done? NONE of these questions are out of line especially when they MAY affect property lines and legal landuse. In addition Ray – none of these things are hard to do – send a letter, drop off a note, leave a business card with a phone number, stop by to talk, in other words act like a neighbor. When your people just show up and start planting flags and stakes you’re in for trouble.
While I understand you have thousands of these parcels to look after, my experience has been that it goes so much faster and is a lot less stressful when the neighbors are happy to see you. Change the culture.
The CTC purchases lots that the TRPA says are sensitive and can’t be built on. The CTC buys the land, and the owner sells based on TRPAs interpretation of sensitive. TRPA at some point says the land is not sensitive anymore and the CTC sells the land and or coverage to a Randy Lane and or Lew Feldman type. The previous owner gets screwed. Nice system for the developers.
Kae, Tuffy, and others. I agree with so many of your comments. I’m going to take some time here to break everything down, trying not to repeat what’s been said except to make it more concise.
The CTC purchased these lots to protect the lake from further degradation via an exploding building boom in the early 80s and thereafter. The Forest Service did the same under the guidance of the Santini-Burton Act passed by Congress in 1980. At the time, neither organization had the employees, opportunity, or funds (apportioned) to conduct surveys. They rarely saw the parcels before purchase even, and spent years on assessment, title work, and restoration. The fortunate thing about the federal agency, the FS, is that they have a law enforcement arm, the justice system, and surveyors on staff (the LS based out of the El Dorado NF). I worked encroachments for the FS and can say we do place stakes before a letter of encroachment, and often that letter will also hold a warning citation from one of the LEOs at the forest. The CTC does not have these authorities. Additionally, they are in fact the independent party because they gain nothing from ‘taking’ your land, and only suffer from the drama. Rather, they are enforcing law and those directives negotiated with public comment for CA lands managed by them. Hence the process being more informal than with the Forest Service. It is in fact up to you to conduct a survey on your property to determine whether you are in violation, not the CTC. They are being kind by doing this for you, and in doing so are trying to reduce this drama.
Tuffy, I perfectly understand your thoughts about public relations. I worked for the CTC resto crew last season and we do the best we can. Jeff Miller is a great public servant and is also trying to juggle strict enforcement with being a good neighbor. I believe that Kae blew this out of proportion, as Ive seen myself while with the FS, and couldn’t hear that she was in violation and there was some middle ground to be found. Rather she called the deputy director in a hurry and ran this up the pole too far too fast for a compromise. Ive been witness via the CTC to encroachers who have had a year or more to move out of violation. Our crew has in fact helped homeowners remove material from CTC property to resolve encroachments more quickly and menially.
If the CTC were able to acquire the authority the FS has in resolving encroachments, there would be far more ticked off homeowners out there, not knowing they were in the wrong. This would likely be through the Sheriff’s office of each county.
Everyone should remember that each major project proposed by the management (office folk) at the CTC has to run through public comment. Be an informed citizenry so that we can debate and negotiate the progress of our community together. These agencies are doing the best they can while adhering strictly to the law, on shoestring budgets (for the most part), and often using grant dollars rather than general funds. Enjoy those adjacent lands as day-use open space. So many of our neighbors clean up errant garbage, trim low-hanging branches for fire safety, and take pride (and property value increases) in the public good of these conserved parcels. We might at the same time respect those low-paid workers bees that maintain them at the same time.
How did she rush things when she was told to move things that day? She reacted in the time frame the CTC gave her. Immediately.
Maybe someone should ask her if she wanted to compromise.
Kae,
I too have a CTC lot next to my house. However this is not environmentally sensitive land. It’s just a lot between two houses that was never built on. I have always been respectful of their land and pick up the trash, from bears being pulled from my neighbors.
I was putting a lawn in around 10 years ago. I had 8 yards of top soil dumped on my property for the job. The next day someone from the CTC comes out and the conversation was pleasant, I tell him how I clean up the lot, and would like to get some of the fuel woods picked up. He tells me I can’t touch anything but trash. Okay, I won’t.
Then he paces off steps from the one marker we can find. Then the mans demeanor changes and gets aggressive with me and tells me I’m doing work on “HIS” property. I said “What are you talking about?’ He says that pile of dirt was on “HIS” property. I then say, ” Are you kidding me? Right now you are speculating about the property line. Get out here with a real survey crew or a GPS and prove it. Otherwise get out of here.”
The amount of dirt he claimed to be on “HIS” property, was maybe one cubic foot. It’s this aggressive nature that gets people upset.